The Recreation Commons - Fifth Floor: Paradise Garden - Page 15

Drogue · August 18, 2003, 16:29

Herc: It's not the AABB that gets me, it's the fact I got Cs, Ds and Us this year. My AS pulled me up to a semi-decent set of grades.

I'm thinking of going to Warwick (my insurance) either defered or this year. Just got to see if they let me (they wanted a B in maths, I was 5 marks off (less than 1%). But then I did get a place on their Maths course too

A year out could be good, retake A levels, keep working where I am (County Council's Strategic Finance Department) and go travelling for a couple of months in the summer. I fancy going to Eastern Europe to study the effects of the fall of communism.

And hey, I have tickets for Reading Festival this weekend

Hercules · August 18, 2003, 17:23

Congratulations Jamski, you've come back from the dead( well RL ) to be an Emperor.

Hercules · August 18, 2003, 17:24

Congratulations Jamski, you've come back from the dead ( well RL ) to be an Emperor.

Hercules · August 18, 2003, 17:26

Whoops. sorry about double post, it was the delay

Maniac · August 18, 2003, 17:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I fancy going to Eastern Europe to study the effects of the fall of communism.

Oh really? That would certainly be interesting!

But before you leave, should you do it, do tell me what your opinion is about the fall of communism and the way the conversion to free market was done. It seems many people change their opinion about that after visiting those countries. They start out with ideals about the glory of free market and inefficiency of the state, and come back recognizing that the state should always remain strong to prevent all sorts of abuses.

Snowflake · August 18, 2003, 17:47

That's why we don't use free market system in the Hive.

Vev · August 20, 2003, 01:11

Glory to the Hive, its efficiency and turn completions!

Kody · August 20, 2003, 01:17

Hey I haven't posted the turn yet.

I still have to work out the balancing of our SE settings.

Octavian X · August 20, 2003, 04:17

Huh, I thought that was my job...

*Octavian points to a badge on his vest saying 'Magna Frater of Social Engineering.'

Oh, hell if I care. Less work for me.

Kody · August 20, 2003, 04:31

Yeah, but the decision was about balancing production, credits and tech considerations 8 turns into the future. If you don't consider it holistically then we could lose a few ECs down the track.

And if you consider we're selling articles for 1 EC each. Then that's a huge amount of work we're saving for those poor writers by spending 2 hours calculating the future production and energy distribution needs.

Drogue · August 20, 2003, 08:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Oh really? That would certainly be interesting!

Thats what i thought. I was thinking of e-mailing the Russian Government and asking if I could go there to study/work with them for a couple of months. Either that or go to study Scandanavian economies to see if the American's are right and public services stagnate economies. I keep being told that in topping the human development index they are wrecking their future prosperity, and I'd like to see if there is any truth in it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
But before you leave, should you do it, do tell me what your opinion is about the fall of communism and the way the conversion to free market was done.

I'm glad it happened, but a little unsure about how it was done. I think a market in some sense brings efficiency and prosperity, but I think it needs to be bought in as quickly as possible (a la Czech Republic). The shock is great, but short-lived, wherea changing like Russia brings bigger problems. I think a lot of the post '89 economic problems are down to the old system, such as the virtually 0% inflation for 40 years, which caused mass inflation when they removed their controls. It takes time to change, for instance the UK is prosperous now because of Thatcherism. It may have been bad having to endure it, but the freer market it brought means we have more prosperity now.

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
It seems many people change their opinion about that after visiting those countries. They start out with ideals about the glory of free market and inefficiency of the state, and come back recognizing that the state should always remain strong to prevent all sorts of abuses.

IMHO it is the state in a free market that performs much of the abuses. I agree that there needs to be some constraints on it, but I think it is far more efficient and prosperous now than it was 20 years ago. There is a big shock involved in changing, but I think over the long term tht becomes a lot less important. I think in 20 years Eastern Europe will be grateful that it changed, as I don't think the shock has disappeared yet.

Quite simply, in terms of economic prosperity, Eastrn Europe has gained from changing. There is more money (PPP measurement as well as exchange) in total there. The spread of money, the equality, I am not sure about. There is probably less at the very top (ie. government corruption), less at the bottom (worker's - no longer full employment) but a lot more in the middle (Bourgeousie). I will have to do some research on it first.

I believe in a free market, but one with strong public services, a welfare state, and strong environmental regulations. Think of Scandinavia, but with a little less tax and a lot less employee regulations.

Drogue · August 20, 2003, 08:42

Maniac: When you say abuses, what do you mean? IMHO most abuses are either performed by the state on the individual, or should be illegal. The former is removed (economically) by a free market, and the latter is purely political.

Hercules · August 20, 2003, 15:59

Much more interesting to visit China. A country, a nation, going through an extraordinary period of change (well when was it not). Now in the early throes of opening up to the WTO agreements.

Yes it has widespread in-efficiencies (like I suspect a lot of countries have); it has its societal strata, but it has no severe levels of poverty. And the overall standard of living seems to be well above (personal unscientific view) African and South American levels.

The book I read on my travels was Ferdnand Braudel's History of Civilisations.
If you are not familiar with his work, then for my money he was the foremost European Historian/Sociologist/Geographer of the 20th century.

The History of Civilisations was a development of a series of lectures from 25 years ago ( now updated, with scholarly comments to reflect new findings) and demonstrates a breath of vision spanning centuries and millenia that few scholars, in the modern era would dare undertake.

In all my years I don't believe I have witnessed such a thing as a free market in anything. I have witnessed price fixing, subsidies, monoploy, cartels, insider dealing, bribery, corruption ( widespread in the EU, as elsewhere ), in-efficiencies, political interference, trade barriers, exploitation of cheap (you know the well known Brand examples) child labour.

I 'd better stop.

Darkness' Edge · August 21, 2003, 02:39

*walks in*
*notices people are still debating free market economics*
*smirks*

GeneralTacticus · August 21, 2003, 03:31

Never thought I'd see Drogue advocating Thatcherism...

Drogue · August 21, 2003, 04:35

DARKNESS EDGE HAS RETURNED!!!!

And we only just started on it because of my plans for places to go to study local economics (yes, it's all my fault again)

Btw: If you fancy joining in, feel free to join the CyCon

Come and join Method (formerly TKG), DBTS, Maniac, Vlad and a couple of new people

GT: Many things have thier uses. We're strong now (economically) because of Thatcher crushing the unions, low tax rates, selling of properties and public run companies and a lack of public spending. However I wouldn't want to return to Thatcherism. It has created good now, but it messed it up at the time. I'm glad we had it, but extremely glad we don't now

Darkness' Edge · August 21, 2003, 05:29

Glad some of those guys are still around. Never was one for team games though. MWIA and I broke the party system the first time around.

MWIA just posted about starting another, non-team ACDG, along the lines of the first one, but with certain changed features. I'm up for it, if anyone's interested.

Drogue · August 21, 2003, 06:20

I'm up for it too. What features/factions etc?

GeneralTacticus · August 21, 2003, 06:21

I think that's still under discussion...

Maniac · August 21, 2003, 08:06

I'm not sure I'll respond to your economics post Drogue.

I fear it might end up in

and

.

Drogue · August 21, 2003, 09:30

Sorry. I'm not to up on the specifics of Eastern European economics. I'm not for unfettered capitalism, but neither do I think there should be that much power in the hands of the government (especially ours

). I'm not a right-wing nut, honest

Snowflake · August 21, 2003, 10:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Hercules
it has no severe levels of poverty. And the overall standard of living seems to be well above (personal unscientific view) African and South American levels.

Yes it has. Just that the parts where severe levels of poverty exist are not really open to foreign visitors. But I agree overall the living standard is above some of the African and South american countries.

Jamski · August 21, 2003, 16:14

Quote:

But I agree overall the living standard is above some of the African and South american countries.

And parts of Manchester...

Drogue, why don't you visit a civilised part of Europe, like southern Germany... I have a spare bed if you're interested, and you'd only have to pay a minimal rent

@Herc - hardly anyone even noticed apart from you...

-Jam

Snowflake · August 21, 2003, 16:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski

@Herc - hardly anyone even noticed apart from you...

-Jam

Would it be because you were busy painting the ceiling?

Drogue · August 21, 2003, 16:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Hercules
In all my years I don't believe I have witnessed such a thing as a free market in anything. I have witnessed price fixing, subsidies, monoploy, cartels, insider dealing, bribery, corruption ( widespread in the EU, as elsewhere ), in-efficiencies, political interference, trade barriers, exploitation of cheap (you know the well known Brand examples) child labour.

There isn't such thing as a free market. There are freer markets though. Perfect competition (a free market) is just an idea.