Should there be a Kurdish State? - Page 3

Inverse Icarus · April 10, 2003, 13:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Ubergeek
Turkey would be against it, as well as Syria, Iran and the rest of Iraq. In other words, every neighbor Kurdistan would have.

i'm not too sure, but I don't think Bush would like another "istan" to deal with either.

My Wife Hates CIV · April 10, 2003, 13:30

how much say should these countries have? Turkey is allied with the US... well in a twisted kinda way.

Iran... they are already on Bush's hit list. Syria is taking some big risks. I dont think the US would get rid of them also but we are right there with all the weapons in place. I think the US should attack them now - but hey, I'm MWHC and I understand my views may be considered somewhat harsh.

Perhaps only the US/Brits and Iraq should have a say in it?

Worthingtons · April 10, 2003, 13:34

What religion do the Kurds follow!?
To who are they allied and whom are thier enemies?

Ubergeek · April 10, 2003, 13:35

My historical memory is a little fuzzy, MWHC, but I'm pretty sure it was westerners unilaterally drawing lines on maps that got us into this mess in the first place. I doubt very strongly that more westerners unilaterally drawing different lines on maps will get us out of it, or indeed do anything but crate a mass of new problems for future generations to deal with.

My Wife Hates CIV · April 10, 2003, 13:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
What religion do the Kurds follow!?
To who are they allied and whom are thier enemies?

I would guess they like the US a little better now. If they didnt already.

Ubergeek · April 10, 2003, 13:43

The Kurds are majority Muslim and have no historical friends. For several hundred years they were ruled by Rome, then for several hundred years by Byzantium, and then for several hundred years by the Ottomans. They have not much intruded upon the wider consciousness of the world and have only had any appreciable nationalist identity since the mid-1920s. They have no historical enemies, per se, but rather have traditionally been a subject people of their more powerful neighbors.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 13:56

Ali Baba was kurd...

hardly a 1920 creation

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 13:58

The Kurds are severly split amongst themselves. They are muslim while some christians exist. There are marxist fighting fractions, national fighting fractions ect all aiming at their independance.

they are a distinct nationality with their own customs, language and culture.

they unfortunately participated in the genocide of armenians by turkey in 1920 since they were promised a state.

they have been persecuted brutally by a number of people and countries... even some which are by some people now considered as WW2 heroes...

Ubergeek · April 10, 2003, 13:58

There has been Kurdish "national identity" only since the mid-1920's. The ethnic group has, of course, been around much longer than that, Paitkis, but that's irrelevant to the topic. I was not suggesting that the Kurds sprang from the earth in the middle of the third decade of the last century.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 14:00

there's a reason ethnicity and nation have the same word in greek.

althiough i understand what youre trying to say

Japher · April 10, 2003, 14:01

i kind of think that if you want your own state you have to get it and not have it handed to you by someone else. if they are given their own state what are the chances that they would keep it?

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 14:03

if thats the case then you shouldnt impede them from getting one either....

works both ways
if you support those who stop them then you stop them

either completel neutrality or

Worthingtons · April 10, 2003, 14:09

It's an Interesting situation, but like Israel, the Kurds should probably be given thier own State. Of course the silly idiots from that area will all kick off and probably start wars but let them riot among themselves.
The Creation of Israel was one of the most just things to happen in History - It's a great thing that Hummanity can overcome the racism of arabs and let the good Jewish people have thier own deserved land.

Consistant rulings should now be applied, and if the Kurds revolt strong enough we should not stand in thier way.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 14:11

i think they revolt strong enough,

id guess any kindof revolt s theirs would be enough in other parts of the world, but there in turkey iraq and iran, if you revolt and cant keep it up (for many rasons other than your own) youre genocided pretty quickly

just ask the armenians or the kurds of both turkey and iraq (not sure about iran)

Spiffor · April 10, 2003, 14:17

The only Kurd I know is Iraqi, and his family lives in Baghdad. He often shows a national, Iraqi pride. Probably, most Kurds want to be independent, but we shouldn't draw conclusions too fast.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 14:19

Well Greece is filled with Kurds who have escaped death from Turkey. (political asylum)

They seem pretty determined about it.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 14:21

But I also think they're not so anti iraq as they are anti-turkey from what I have gathered.

we had kurds and iraqis officials talk in a show, the kurds seemed not so hostile to iraq , whereas when it came to turkey....

Spiffor · April 10, 2003, 14:28

Turkey seems to have managed gathering an impressive amount of enemies during the centuries. I hope their entry in the EU changes their image and their behaviour.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 14:29

the catch is that it wont untill it resolves them and it wont resolve them until it is.

a catch 22 well see.

but as a neighboor of turkey i have to say it is pretty abnoxious and without repsect for international law.

only guns make her behave, a lesson everyone dealing with her should know

SlowwHand · April 10, 2003, 16:34

Just give Turkey to the Kurds, Syria to the Palestinians.

gsmoove23 · April 10, 2003, 16:37

Just roll the Turks and Kurds into one big country called Turdistan.

Dumb, I know.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 16:39

Turdistan?

WHo would want to lieve in a coutnry called Turdistan?

It isn't very inspiring

orange · April 10, 2003, 16:42

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

So they're only entitled to a sliver of their historical lands? The majority of Kurdistan is in Turkey

We've already dicked around with Iraqi soveirgnty...I don't think it would be good to push it to Iran and Turkey as well...

Ming · April 10, 2003, 17:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Japher
i kind of think that if you want your own state you have to get it and not have it handed to you by someone else. if they are given their own state what are the chances that they would keep it?

Uhhh... if you haven't noticed... they seem to be doing that right now. It seems like they on a mission of statehood and not one of just attacking the Iraqi forces.

If you take a hard look at what they are doing with support of limited US troops... they are setting the boundries for a new state.

I don't think they have ANY intent of being part of Iraq anymore. This is going to get really interesting in the very near future.

realpolitic · April 10, 2003, 17:12

A Kurdish State - but no land from Turkey - that would cause a real mess, maybe even war.

Ming · April 10, 2003, 17:16

I personally think that if they can just settle for Northern Iraq, and don't try to take any land from anybody else, they just might be able to get away with it by just doing it.

Ben Kenobi · April 10, 2003, 17:18

Would Kurdistan as defined be economically viable?

Give them a state. Unlike the Israelis in 1948, they are the majority in this part of the world.

Ubergeek · April 10, 2003, 17:22

Trying to pry Kurdish land away from Turkey would cause a war with no maybe about it. The only country that holds Kurdish land right now that could be convinced to give it up without a fight is Iraq, because they are utterly prostrate at the moment. Five or ten years down the road, when Iraq is back on its feet, they'd go to war to reclaim it. All this loose talk of a Kurdish state is very easy for us in front of our computers in our comfortable homes and offices, but it's an impossible absurdity on the ground of the Middle East where large numbers of people are willing to fight to the death (they own and the deaths of others) on either side of any given issue.

Bereta_Eder · April 10, 2003, 17:28

I seriously doubt Iraq going back to Kurdistan to reclaim it.

Ming · April 10, 2003, 17:29

Looking at what the Kurds are currently doing in Northern Iraq... I wouldn't call it just loose talk in front of a computer. I'm talking about what is happening right now. Right now, Iraq is in no position to dispute a claim if they make one... And maybe Turkey would try to stop it, but I'm not sure the Americans will go to war with these current allies...

I'm not sure anybody can stop them from doing so at this point... again, only if they stick with Northern Iraqi territory.