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Old April 10, 2003, 13:54   #1
Yahweh Sabaoth
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Gettin' Your Palace On
So, I finally decided to try out a strategy that's probably old hat to most of you warmongers out there.

I had a great "homeland" for my civ but knew I was going to be doing a LOT of conquering. So, I built my Forbidden Palace in Lyons (playing as the French, bien sur) and waited to relocate my palace later.

Well, just my luck, after conquering England, Spain, Scandanavia, Arabia, Germany and parts of Russia, I had STILL produced NO Great Leaders. And I have Sun Tzu's. I've hardly had a break from war, and yet no great leaders.

So I decided to just suck it up and start building my palace where I want it, smack in the middle of my continent (Mecca).

So how many turns is it going to take me? 1000!

In case I don't get a great leader soon - I have terrible luck producing the damn things - is there any way I can speed my palace growth? Or will only a great leader do the job?

Help!
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Old April 10, 2003, 14:12   #2
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Try rushing a courthouse and get the city in WLTKD, either by entertainers or the luxury slider (which can be a rather costly operation). That way, you might get your palace up in ~100 turns. Good luck though!
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Old April 10, 2003, 14:20   #3
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It is concievable, then? "1000" doesn't mean "You just can't build this unless you rush-build it, period"?
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Old April 10, 2003, 14:35   #4
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1000 means your palace now costs 1000 shields. The larger your empire gets, the more expensive your palace is (it starts at two or three hundred shields, IIRC). 1000 is the upper limit, I think.

My advice on leaders is this: don't rush the war. Take your time. Kill every AI unit you see, preferably with elite units. Use your elites in as many battles as possible. If you have to delay an attack to heal your elites so they can take part, delay the battle. I sometimes gamble with them (this obviously contradicts my advice to be careful with them, and is a case-by-case judgement call) - if I have, say, a 3hp elite knight healing up in a city, and an AI archer comes my way, I may just pop out and try nailing the archer with my elite knight, figuring that 3hp of knight outta kill 3-4hp of archer on defense.

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Old April 10, 2003, 14:50   #5
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Well, after I take out Russia, there'll be only 2 civs left on my continent - the Ottomans and the Celts, both 5 or 6 techs behind the industrial age (I rock the party, now the most advanced power in the world building ToE).

I was going to let them live, as taking them out WILL be a hassle - both are behind, and settled in, huge mountain/hill ranges, and the Celts, agressive little buggers, have a huge force of vet/elite knights. The Ottomans too have impressive defenses...

...so maybe I'll do a meat-grinder war to smash the Ottomans (and accelerate it before they get to use Sipahi) and than an endless meat-grinder against the Celts (who have many sources of iron).

That will give me UP and, most likely, a leader.

If I don't get a leader from all that, Arrian, I'm going to ask God himself to give me your luck for at least one game, you with your 9 leaders and all.
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Old April 10, 2003, 14:52   #6
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What's the Profile of this City?
if it's built up with the Terrain very much Improved then I'm stuck.

If Not i would do the folllowing.

Rush a Courthouse on the 2nd turn (disband a few useless units and then hit the rush button). If Factory is available do the same - Get the City Producing lot's even if you do have lots of corruption, then I'd mine every single tile and overload this City with Workers - 10-20 workers dependant upon the size already. You can pack the City with Entertainers and make sure you utilise every single productive tile. When the City starves down send in more workers.
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Old April 10, 2003, 14:59   #7
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I might do a little of both... this is the first game where I've gone to war and not stopped, and not bothered buying temples (for the most part) or upgrading my defenders (still all musketeers or pikemen/spearmen!), so I have about 4000 gold save up, with about 150 coming in per turn. Enough to rush courthouse, factory, etc., and still have money to upgrade my defenders to infantry at some point.

Still, I'd rather build the damn thing now and quadruple (or whatever) my income per turn!
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Old April 10, 2003, 16:02   #8
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Yep, long meatgrinder war sounds good, for the purpose of leader generation (bad otherwise). How many elite units do you have?

Make sure you cut their resources. Siphai BAD!

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Old April 10, 2003, 16:09   #9
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The Ottomans will build no Sipahi.

I have probably about 30~40 cavs, with about 6~10 of them being elite.
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Old April 10, 2003, 16:13   #10
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With 6-10 Elite Cavalry, getting a leader shouldn't be too hard, given time. Patience, grasshopper

Do not use those Cavs against "hard targets." Use them to destroy the Ottoman troops that leave their cities. Bombard first, if you can (have artillery?).

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Old April 10, 2003, 16:21   #11
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No artillery yet. I don't have a very good rail system, so I've just been cranking out the cavs. The toughest thing I've come up against are veteran musketmen fortified in size 12 cities. Big whoop.

On the other hand, more than once I've lost full-HP elite cavs to full-HP spearmen regulars defended in towns... where's the justice in that?
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Old April 10, 2003, 16:39   #12
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I've lost cav to spears too. It happens. Sometimes a 2.5 can beat a 6. You just gotta roll with it.

I typically lead with my veteran troops and finish wounded defenders with elites. If I get down to spearmen, though, I would do what you did: just attack with an elite, figuring it ought to win. If if dies, believe me, I have VERY strong words for my pixels! (DAMNIT! You SUCK! Why do I pay you guys! You DESERVED to die! etc.)

Get yourself Replaceable Parts, both for that rail system and the artillery, not to mention infantry, which makes your troops totally impervious to non-Sipahi counterattack.

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Old April 10, 2003, 18:13   #13
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As long as you want your palace on the same continent as the forbidden palace, one possibility is to move it a little bit at a time. Find a highly productive city with, say, 50% or so corruption with courthouse, police station if available, and WLT?D, and build your palace there. Then when it's finished, cities farther away will be low enough corruption that you can move it again. That would still be a long, slow process, but it should be a whole lot less than a thousand turns. And along the way, cities in between the FP and the eventual palace location would get a period of low corruption to build up.

I've never actually used that technique thus far, but I keep it in my bag of tricks just in case it might come in handy sometime.

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Old April 11, 2003, 09:48   #14
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Well, I finally got a leader beating off the Russians, so I rushed my palace.

But before hand, I had built a courthouse, which knocked the price down from 1000 turns to 132! Quite a significant advancement!

The "palace skipping" trick sounds good... I'm going to keep that in mind, for the future...

OT, as for those Ottomans, well, I have 100+ cavs, most elite or veteran, but the Ottomans have about 20 cities, many sources of saltpeter, and their entire empire is heavily mountainous. The Celts to the south would be easier, but still a pill. I'm building artillery now... I wanted to bring in screenshot but couldn't figure out how to capture one... I might try a MGW (meat grinder war) but I'm a democracy currently, which might be a problem... still, I want the UP in effect, dammit...
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Old April 11, 2003, 10:11   #15
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Oh, NO MEATGRINDER WARS AS A DEMOCRACY!

Monarchy is excellent for MGWs, Democracy is better suited for quick, decisive wars.

You've gotten your leader, so the whole purpose behind the MGW is irrelevant. Now you should only fight if it provides you with an advantage (productive cities, close enough to your Palace? Luxuries?). Those civs *may* be worth more alive than dead, if you can sell them luxuries for GPT.

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Old April 11, 2003, 10:13   #16
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The whole point of taking those guys on now would be to teach myself to be a better warmonger. And for UP.

I hope the whole point of this thread isn't bunk now that I've built my palace...
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Old April 11, 2003, 10:36   #17
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Being a good warmonger also involves picking your targets wisely.

It may be that whacking the Ottomans & Celts is a good idea. I don't know, since I haven't seen the map.

Or it may be that your empire would be better served by invading an overseas civ.

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Old April 11, 2003, 10:38   #18
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I might do overseas... they're all a little too large to take on without significant war weariness.

I'm thinking about cruising for the modern age and waging a modern war... I do that rarely, and they're good fun...
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Old April 18, 2003, 12:36   #19
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Don't Hesitate to Move Your Palace with GLs

I just wanted to note the last two games in a row I've moved my palace using a GL, for the first (2) times. In my current game, as Russia, I've done it twice.

If you can generate the necessary GL, I highly recommend moving your palace to your newly conquered lands as often as possible! A wonderful tactic! I took diplaptidated England/Scandanavia, moved my palace to Trondheim (leaving my FP near Moscow, in Smolensk I believe), and built that area into something worthwhile.

Not knowing what to do with my knights (and, soon, cossacks - great unit!), I decided to gamble on attacking well-developed France and Spain. I thought I'd grab a few cities and dilipidate my fighting force on a few expensive battles, just prior to entering democracy.

But I did better than expected, and when cossacks came along, I committed to wiping these nations out! Bear in mind, they're in the South, with Russia in the north, and Russia not being commercial, my captured cities were quite prone to corruption...

...well, I got several GLs and used one AGAIN to move my palace! Twice in the same game; I thought I'd never see it. Now my capital is Tours, and I have two major industrial "zones": Russia and Spain/France. Furthermore, aside from a Celts and a few straggler cities, I have the whole huge continent to myself.

So, end of story: to all you less experienced players, do experiment with moving your palace. I know it's tempting to build wonders in one turn, but unless you're in a race for one, remember that a GL have give you, potentially, a NEW CORE AREA in addition to the one you've got, assuming you built your FP in your core area.

That, IMO, is a lot more valuable than just one wonder.
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Old April 18, 2003, 12:38   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
You've gotten your leader, so the whole purpose behind the MGW is irrelevant. Now you should only fight if it provides you with an advantage (productive cities, close enough to your Palace? Luxuries?). Those civs *may* be worth more alive than dead, if you can sell them luxuries for GPT.

-Arrian
Just wanted to note that after I used my GL to move my palace to Vladivostok, I won a cultural victory that netted me my highest civ score ever.

Not that that score compares to even a typical one of player such as yourself, or Catt or Dominae or any of you "big boys" around here, but me it was quite an accomplishment, and I credit it to having added Germany/Russia to my "industrial base".

I won before I got the opportunity to take on the Ottomans and/or Celts.
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Old April 18, 2003, 13:26   #21
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Yahweh,

Well done!

I'm glad you've discovered the awesome power of moving your palace. I have occasionally done multiple palace moves (though I do typically try and conquer my way to an "ideal" spot ASAP and just do it once), such as in AU207, where I moved my palace first to Berlin, and then to Tanis (I built it next to the ruins of an American city).

I think it was Catt who posted a thread about multiple palace moves and how you could use it to build up areas of your empire sequentially, to the point where once you moved the palace away, an area would remain relatively productive because you had the chance to build courthouses, markets, etc. while the Palace was in the vicinity.

That's what I did with Germany in AU207. The cities surrounding Berlin built courthouses right away, even though they didn't really need them at the time, so that when I moved the Palace farther north, Germany would remain productive. It worked fairly well.

The difficulty, of course, is generating the leaders necessary to do this, and resisting the temptation to use said leaders on Wonders. Hence my obssession with leader generation... which I feel I've got down pat now.

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Old April 18, 2003, 13:33   #22
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It does all come down to the leaders... as I've *****ed about before, I seem to almost NEVER generate leaders, even in times of heavy war. This game, as the Russians, I've generated 5:

1. Build Army

of course, I built the HE...

2. Move Palace to Trondheim
3. Build Copernicus' Obs. (just to use the leader)
4. Move Palace to Tours
5. Build new Army

I'm well used to rushing the US, ToE, Hoover, etc., and I may still during this game. After all, there's not much continent left, and I don't think I'm leaving mine.

I would have to say that I intend to explore Catt's theory more in my next game (as the Japanese). I definitely left England/Scandanavia, which was seriously underdeveloped, as a solid area with at least temples, libraries, and defense in every city, WITHOUT SPENDING A DIME. Now this area is worth defending and can eventually, of its own merit, grow.

With my two core areas already well-developed, I'm now free to "choose my destiny": ride it out to a cultural victory? Space race? Buttress myself to crush the technological backwards but still nasty Celts?

I'm looking forward to it. But I must admit, Luck played it part in bringing me the first GL back in the ancient/medival war against Germany. If it hadn't been for that ONE BATTLE, who knows where I would be today?
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Old April 18, 2003, 14:50   #23
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But I must admit, Luck played it part in bringing me the first GL back in the ancient/medival war against Germany. If it hadn't been for that ONE BATTLE, who knows where I would be today?
Luck is huge. Last night, during online discussions with my team in the PTW Demo game (it was our turn, and we're at war, so there was a fair amount of discussion), I fired up a new game.

Standard, Continents, 70%, Normal, Cold, 3 billion, Monarch. I chose... France. That does stack the deck in my favor, given the settings. I got myself a good starting spot (river, cow, some silk). I played for a bit, posted for a bit... I wasn't necessarily going to play the game out. But I was doing well. I was outresearching & outgrowing the AI comfortably. I attacked my closest neighbor, the Iroquois with swordsmen.

Two events took place during that war that convinced me that this is a game to play out:

1) 2 turns before I took it, Salamanca finished the Pyramids.
2) My one and only elite swordsman, upon winning his 2nd battle as an elite, generated a great leader (wiping out the Iroquois in the process).

I also built the Lighthouse and managed to find everyone else, and have a healthy tech & power lead going. My FP, roughly centered on my continent, is due for completion in 4 turns. My last remaining neighbor, Spain, is a joke.

So I have several options open to me, all of which are likely to lead to a comfortable victory:

1) build an army, invade Spain, build HE. Build up for invasion of one of the overseas civs (I'm thinking Arabia).

2) Hold leader, invade Spain, buildup to invade overseas, bring leader for palace move.

3) Rush a wonder.

Ah, decisions, decisions.

-Arrian
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Old April 18, 2003, 15:00   #24
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Ay di mi. This is OT, but when did you start building the swordsmen? Did you bother with a temple or library first or did you just get ready for war?
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Old April 18, 2003, 15:32   #25
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Yahweh,

Paris built 4 warriors & a granary right off the bat. One other piece of luck I failed to mention: the second hut I popped gave me a settler. Granted, I built a so-so city with that settler, but that so-so city ended up building the Great Lighthouse.

Anyway, I built libraries in Paris & my #2 city, along with barracks in several cities (not Paris for a while, it pumped settlers/workers for a bit) and then built spearmen and then a bunch of warriors. Connect iron, upgrade warriors, kill. Meanwhile, I built temples, markets, courthouses, etc.

I've just hit the middle ages (feudalism done, monotheism in the works) and noone else has LITERATURE! Some of them are on the cusp of the M.A., but - and I've seen the AI do this before - they seem to be ignoring Lit. I was building the GL, but have switched it to Sun Tzu, and started the GL elsewhere... which may become Sistine or Leos. The GL is likely to be mostly worthless in this game.

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Old April 19, 2003, 11:24   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Don't Hesitate to Move Your Palace with GLs

I just wanted to note the last two games in a row I've moved my palace using a GL, for the first (2) times. In my current game, as Russia, I've done it twice.

If you can generate the necessary GL, I highly recommend moving your palace to your newly conquered lands as often as possible! A wonderful tactic!
I came pretty late to the benefits of place mobility, also (many months of playing before it hit me as a powerful tactic. It is particularly powerful towards the end of the Middle Ages and into the Industrial Ages when the flood of wonders has receded and the few wonders avaialble can often be had through effective pre-building. At that point, leaders mean army or rushed-building, and a rushed palace can do wonders for an empire.

Ater relocating the palace, getting courthouses, markets, factories and police stations up quickly in the surrounding area means that you can relocate the palace again quite quickly.

As Arrian mentioned, HERE is an older thread where there was a lot of discussion regarding palace movement.

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Old April 19, 2003, 12:31   #27
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In regards to palace movement, you also need to be careful that you're not moving it in a way that will sacrifice production or to an area where your new core will be weaker.

I can remember one game, I believe it was AU 201, where I had most of the cities on my home continent maxed out in terms of fighting corruption (WLTKD, courthouse, police stations) and I decided I wanted to move my palace from the south to the north.

Often when I move the palace, I notice an increase in GPT and science production which is often because I have the FP & Palace somewhat close to each other since I'm planning a palace move later. But this time, I had moved my palace once, so when I moved it a second time, my gpt and science output dropped.

I guess my FP & Palace placement were already quite ideal
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Old April 19, 2003, 19:16   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
I think it was Catt who posted a thread about multiple palace moves and how you could use it to build up areas of your empire sequentially, to the point where once you moved the palace away, an area would remain relatively productive because you had the chance to build courthouses, markets, etc. while the Palace was in the vicinity.
Also remember the culture flipping value of Palace moves... both on defense and offense.

I think I;ve moved my Palace three times in AU 207.
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Old April 19, 2003, 19:23   #29
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Good job, Yahweh!!

Don;t be so self-deprecating... you are on top of a lot of the smartest tactics / strategies out there. Believe me, as Catt said above, it takes a loooong time to figure all this out. I'm still learning... the PTWDG has been great for me. And taking on a huge map for AU207 has been very educational too.

As I've said before, warmongering is the easiest way to win. It's in learning all these other subtleties that mastery lies.
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The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
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Old April 21, 2003, 09:47   #30
Yahweh Sabaoth
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Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
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Well, thanks for the support Theseus... I'm currently learning the subtleties OF warmongering. I'll move on the other subtleties later, on Monarch or Emperor.

I must note that moving my palace twice as the Russians gave me a decisive lead, but still, without a commercial trait, many of my courthoused/police stationed/celebrating cities at the end of the game (early modern era cultural victory) STILL lost half their damn production to corruption, and a couple of islands sporting 5 size-6 cities were almost worthless.

It pays to play as commercial, doesn't it? (rhetorical question)
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