Cuba Executes Three Charged in Ferry Hijacking - Page 5

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 19:27

double post

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
WRangler Rhymer:

nice try but you need to dwell a little bit deeper and see the reality of things behind the shiny skyscrapers and hotels of Shanghai.

Chinese economic reform has been successful in many aspects, as I have said, however, it has failed to reach the majority of the Chinese population, and even in the places where it is more evident: a few coastal cities like Shanghai and Canton (The Special Zones which you apparently don't know much about).

As it stands, this "capitalism" is 1) not true capitalism as it does not serve the entire nation. Ever hear of the phrase "one country, two systems?" since you seem to know so much about Deng, you would know that it was very famous during his rule. 2) those places where capitalism apparently exists, it is geared towards foreigners, and the attraction of Foreign Direct Investment which is the foundation of Chinese economic success. China is the one nation which receives the most FDI in the world and while many of it goes to nice glitzy hotels and office buildings, most of it ends up in sweatshops where chinese workers work long hours, get paid miserable wages (if at all). That is the majority of what most chinese have to say about reform besides the lucky ones which happen to live in the privileged zones which I mentioned.

It is also no mystery to us economists that Chinese statistics are flawed and mostly overstate by much what the Chinese economy is really growing. Why is this? Because unlike in a capitalist economy, getting data on GNP and other economic statistics lends itself to gross misinterpretation when dealing with communist countries. If China were truly capitalist as you claim, estimating GNP would be no harder than any other nation.

Also, you are wrong in saying that China and Russia are no longer good friends. After the Sino-Soviet split in the 1960s, both countries viewed each other with great suspicion. However in recent years there has been a tremendous re-approachment by these two countries, and anyone here who follows current events will testify that China and Russia have a rather strong relationship, unlike that with the US which has its ups and downs whenever the US bombs a chinese embassy or crash-lands spy aircraft in chinese territory, or bugs chinese presidential craft...

The US-Chinese relationship is ultimately one of necessity (economic necessity) not precesely of true friendship as both countries view each other as their greatest long-time threat.

In conclusion I am not saying that China has not taken a series of semi-capitalist reforms, but rather, that it has not been as widespread as you seem to believe. Again, "one country, two systems", you know what that other sistem is WRangler? Yes, communism, brutal and represive as any other, communism, where people get paid shitty wages and work their asses off, where people still die of hunger and fail to realize their full potential. That is the reality of most of the hundreds of millions of chinese who are unlucky to be among the priviledged few.

That the situation is better than 20 years ago, yes, probably much better. That is is "capitalist". Hell no, so give up...

BTW, I only admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. And that is not too often because I don't get into discussions about things I am unfamiliar about

This article may be a little extreme but no more so than yours about shiny new hotels. The truth, of course, is usually found somewhere in the middle.

Master Zen sources are: Master Zen's twisted mind,Master Zen's twisted mind, and finally Master Zen's twisted mind.
Nice try you I do believe this crap you just typed it and said "Quote". This crap with The Special Zones you apparently like to play games and deal with another reality.

One country, two systems is a witness against how wrong you think, first I never said China was a Democracy, it is still a damn Communism, all I did say is they have a capitalist economy. Hello dumb dumb, I said they have a capitalist economy not that they are a Democracy. That is why the whole Tinananmen Square deal happen the Capitalist reforms lead to stop of Communist sensoreship, then the people found out they have not freedoms, but the Communist leaders do not want to end the rule over China, and for fear that millions will die if they did so. If you read the ****ing sources I put then may be you will wake up. Thanks for going against yourself. Why did you even bother posting what you just have post without getting your story straight. You have just went against yourself now you look like a greater fool.

As for the reforms not reaching the population wrong, if the communal farms changed to free enterprises, and the free small business enterprise were created which now in this day are large Chinese corporation it is only obvious that it reaching all of China. I can show you stock quoting but I see that you only will try to type crap to deny FACT. The wages are **** and they are starving because the gape between the rich and the poor has widen greatly, humm.... I wonder why the gap is so large in China. Oh wait the have a capitalist economy that they have change to, and since there are so many people under the reforms that is why there are shitty wages, and starvation. You are such a fool you bare witness against yourself.

Why the hell would the Chinese not follow the falling history of Russia after all the studing did with Russia. I never said that U.S. China relations were the greatest, there have been rocky roads along the way, but the FACT still remains Sino-American relations are the greatest they have been in along time.

While the Chinese are disguisted with all the Russian have done to them, and their all around failers. China is being better friends with the Russian then they might want to be no doubt of that.
I told MANY Historian people I know what you have said they all laughed. They would easily debunk all this crap you type but they don't like to deal with conspiracy theorists, and people you live in other worlds. I would gadly type their names but they have asked me not to put them out for Nuts to see them, so that something wierd will happen to them.

Seeing that I post real, and truth sources of information that you can easily look up for your self once you get your head back to the Planet Earth, since this is the case all my posts hold wieght and yours does not.

I am not going to bother trying to tell you anything because you are insaine and need professional help, and all your going to do is make me have to waste my time post more FACT to debunk all the garbage you post. It is pathetic at I have to tell you all this and you don't even bother to read FACT out of the many damn sources I wasted my time posting for you. Let me leave on this note: It was once said by the great Deng that when one strays to the left one should guard against it, when one strays to the right one should guard against it. <---- By the way this can be found in the life story of Deng Xiaoping written by his daughter. You are a fool stop talking about for the last bit of dignity you have. I do not want to post with someone so blinded that he post against himself.

Quote:

BTW, I only admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. And that is not too often because I don't get into discussions about things I am unfamiliar about

I guess this is your one of those many times I am sure.

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 19:34

If you do not want to post then why did you even bother to reply???

I'd gladly counter your post again but since I know I will just receive the same insults and crap from you I won't waste my time, I've said enough. Believe what you want to believe, when you go to China, go and stay in a glitzy hotel owned by FOREIGNERS, built with FOREIGN money, and occupied by guess who, yes, FOREIGNERS and , then go to a sweatshop, where Chinese people work, go to the country side and see who's toiling the land, yes, Chinese.

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 19:36

Guess who lives here?

yes... foreigners

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 19:37

.... and guess who lives here?

yes...LOCALS

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 19:46

Say hi to Deng for me, by the way... tell him he really did a good job. As a foreigner I'll be looking forward to living in one of those nice suburbs or staying in a glitzy Shanghai hotel if I ever go over there...

just so you and me are on the same plane of thought: capitalism geared towards foreign direct investment hardly qualifies China as a capitalist country. But something tells me you'll never accept that.

I personally suggest you start reading a decent financial journal, The Economist for starters, there have been so many articles explaining the problems of the Chinese economy that I cannot begin to list them. At least that'll keep you from claiming my sources are works of my twisted mind (oh and re-read your posts, you're the one who sounds like a nut-case not me, a bit of anger-management could do you good).

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 19:48

Quote:

The US-Chinese relationship is ultimately one of necessity (economic necessity) not precesely of true friendship as both countries view each other as their greatest long-time threat.

And the relation with Russia is out of some necessity as well.

As for your post all you did was show how way off you are. First all I did is give evidence that China has a capitalist economy, and not that China is a great Communism. What you did is give a arguement that China is not great, which I was not even talking about in the first place. You gave no evidence that it is has no capitalist economy, all you said is China is not great and a articule on its failures, and your thoughts that it is not a capitalist economy with no proof. I do not even know if this articule is a 15 years old's report, or a true legitamate articule of some magazine, or paper, you put no source.

Az · April 17, 2003, 19:48

Damn, those pics are ugly! They should've hired a bunch of modernist and post modernist architects.

Now I know what they call "The Hive".

Ned · April 17, 2003, 19:58

MasterZen, As the wealth of the average Chinese citizen grows, the people will demand more political rights. If the government grants those rights, you will see the fail of the one party state in due course. If they continue to deny those rights, or move to take away economic liberties previously granted, the people may revolt, as Americans once did against the British and the French against the Monarchy.

What I do not believe is that China will stay a one party state forever.

As to Castro, when he dies, I suspect we will intervene to "restore" "order. We can better influence events a toward democracy with our army in place.

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 20:00

Why the hell did you post pictures of China, like I said I never said China is a great Communism. All I did is give proof that China has a capitalist economy. Remember:

Quote:

Tell me then how China has a capitalist economy... that is all I ask.

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 20:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
Damn, those pics are ugly! They should've hired a bunch of modernist and post modernist architects.

Now I know what they call "The Hive".

Oh, they did! Across the river in the Pudong Financial District, built since the mid-90s and now housing the most impressive skyline in the world outside of New York and Hong Kong:

And guess where the money came from? Foreign Direct Investment. And a big huge waste by the way, as I've read office vacancy rates are 40% or more in Shanghai alone.

So, while hundreds of millions of pure chinese are toiling day and night under a COMMUNIST system, a few lucky party-privileged locals and a plethora of rich foreigners get to live la vida loca in this city within a city.

And BTW, all these 3 pictures are from Shanghai

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 20:03

Quote:

(oh and re-read your posts, you're the one who sounds like a nut-case not me, a bit of anger-management could do you good).

How is that all I did is give proof. Shows that you are the real nut case, and I did get pissed because you insult me and said a bunch of stupid stuff.

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned
MasterZen, As the wealth of the average Chinese citizen grows, the people will demand more political rights. If the government grants those rights, you will see the fail of the one party state in due course. If they continue to deny those rights, or move to take away economic liberties previously granted, the people may revolt, as Americans once did against the British and the French against the Monarchy.

What I do not believe is that China will stay a one party state forever.

As to Castro, when he dies, I suspect we will intervene to "restore" "order. We can better influence events a toward democracy with our army in place.

Yes, very true, I also believe that eventually China will not be communist. However, take the USSR for example, liberty in that case was not preceded by economic growth, au contraire, it was preceded by economic stagnation.

And although Deng might have been an economic Gorbachev, he was no political. China is still a very repressive nation.

As for Castro, the US has NO BUSINESS restoring order there if he dies, thats a job for the Cubans and the international community at the most giving it moral support. When you will get that stupid idea off your head that the US army is not wanted everywhere to solve everybody's problems? Would you have liked a foreign army to solve the Florida electoral crisis? No, so stop trying to justify intervention in other countries when you haven't even asked the people if they want it. You know why the US is so hated? Precisely because people think like that. I'd like you and others to step into the shoes of the countries you intend to "help" and ask yourself if you would want a foreign army to settle your business. The answer is NO.

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 20:08

Quote:

Originally posted by WRangler Rhymer

How is that all I did is give proof. Shows that you are the real nut case, and I did get pissed because you insult me and said a bunch of stupid stuff.

I insulted you, I insulted you??!?!?!?!?

Count how many direct insults YOU'VE dished out and then say who's the nutcase.

Master Zen · April 17, 2003, 20:12

WRangler Rhymer:

In your first post directed at me you said: "China has a Capitol (sic) economy"

That statement says that the chinese economy is exclusively a capitalist economy and nothing else. If you had said, "China has some elements of a capitalist economy", I would not have argued.

But as it stands, in response to our original posts, I'm sorry, but YOU ARE WRONG as the Chinese economy, though including elements of capitalism, is not a true capitalist economy. Deal with it.

SlowwHand · April 17, 2003, 20:21

"So, while hundreds of millions of pure chinese are toiling day and night under a COMMUNIST system, a few lucky party-privileged locals and a plethora of rich foreigners get to live la vida loca in this city within a city."

Yepper. Like I said, Communism is highly successful.

Let me ask you this.
If, as the Chief Cook and Bottle Washer of a commie country, you decide you want a pair of Alligator boots that retail for $1000 bucks American money.
Being The Man, you can afforf that.
So what do you do, make an edict that whomever wants a pair of these boots, gets them?
At government expense?
If communism is all for all, wouldn't that be the case?
Would you buy them from a Capitalist society, or contract your local commie boot-maker?

WHAT if, you didn't have any quality commie boot-makers, and the Capitalist pigs refused to sell you millions of boots?
An embargo, if you will.
Would you fire up your chemical and/or nuclear plants?

All this, because you wanted high-class gator boots.

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 20:28

If the evidence I posted that China does have a Capitalist economy made you think that I like Communist China that is not the case, if I hate Field Castro<--- Communist, that means I do not like Communist China either. I do not argue your evidence that Communist China is rotten, I just prove that it does have a Capitalist economy, not that it is great.

Quote:

As for Castro, the US has NO BUSINESS restoring order there if he dies, thats a job for the Cubans and the international community at the most giving it moral support.

The Cubans do not share your thoughts as I have said I know and I am a Cuban. Ask any cuban in Miami, or Cuba when Field is dead, not while he is alive they will obvious will not say yes, because they could be killed for doing so.

Quote:

Yes, very true, I also believe that eventually China will not be communist

If you feel this way then you must know that China does have a Capitalist economy, and reforms that are anti-Communist, which is Democratic reforms which will eventually lead to the people bring down the Communist Government.

SlowwHand · April 17, 2003, 20:36

I was talking to the Commie-wannabes in the house.
Be they Cuba style, USSR style, China style, etc.

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 20:37

Hey can you please read pm I sent you Slowwhand.

WRangler Rhymer · April 17, 2003, 20:38

sorry double post again.

Thud · April 17, 2003, 20:44

WRangler Rhymer, while I must say that you had a valid point to make, you've gone beyond that. First off, because now you've degenerated into non-logical debate i.e. "said a bunch of stupid stuff" is not a valid or specific point. Second, because Master Zen is correct- China only has a few specialized economic zones where the glories of capitialism are allowed to shine.

You may know personally someone from Hong Kong or Shanghai that has described how great it is. Not only is there a significant middle class there, but the poor are not so poor because the nation is at the very least socialist (so is sweden, so I'm not saying its a bad thing).

Unfortunatly, throughout the rest of the country, most economic activities are indeed run (poorly) by the government. Even in the so-called 'privitized' industries, the government owns a controlling interest.

Here are some actual sources for you- proof, if you will, not from left or right wing university professors.

The Central Intelligence Agency's 2002 World Factbook:

Quote:

The authorities have switched to a system of household and village responsibility in agriculture in place of the old collectivization, increased the authority of local officials and plant managers in industry, permitted a wide variety of small-scale enterprise in services and light manufacturing, and opened the economy to increased foreign trade and investment.

The American Heritage Dictionary:

Quote:

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Note that the Chinese government, although it is moving closer to capitialism, is not yet there. Small private enterprise is allowed to form, industry is still managed by the government, though local managers are given more leeway, and all investment either originates for overseas or the government, there is no free market, no native capital. (key part of capitialism)

Oh, and while I'm on the dictionary quoting trip, I would like to commend propaganda for his explanation of socialism, which I had indeed not considered before as true but is obvious considering this:

Quote:

n. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

Of course, I think that, while that period is indeed a good idea, it is impractiable. Obviously, they recognized that they couldn't completely change the culture of humanity overnight, but I think they underestimated just how deeply entreched the culture is. I think that Socialism would have to be around for several generations in order to have the desired effect and allow for the switch to Communism without a hitch. This was not done in the USSR, and Communism is not this sort of socialism, resulting in a poorly done counter-culture movement, in which people were still quite lazy and inefficient, which Russia is now feeling the effects of.

Ned · April 17, 2003, 20:48

Master Zen, everyone knows that Castro got a pass during the Cuban missle crisis. He personally has the "get out of jail free card." If we do not act to restore democracy to Cuba when Castro dies, the the Cuban people both inside Cuba and outside Cuba will feel betrayed. The only people who will protest America's actions in liberating Cuba will be the same people who are currently protesting America's actions to liberate Iraq: the Communists, some Democrats and of course France, Germany and Russia.

Hopefully Castro dies before Bush leaves office. Actually, I think that Hillary Clinton has the balls to liberate Cuba. I do not think that any other Democrat does. She'll do it just to spite her husband, who undoubtedly will be UN General Secretary at the time -- calling for an emergency session of the SC to stop that evil witch of an American president before she offends the PC nations of the world.

SlowwHand · April 17, 2003, 20:49

So in short verse, neither Communism nor Socialism work.

Ned · April 17, 2003, 20:55

Thud, I find it interesting that people can seriously argue that communism is a good thing given that all prior examples have been police states. Even Syria and Iraq are quasi-communist states. Some would even call them fascist.

What China now has is communism and fascism side-by-side. One is obviously doing better.

South killer · April 17, 2003, 20:56

Quote:

As for Castro, the US has NO BUSINESS restoring order there if he dies, thats a job for the Cubans and the international community at the most giving it moral support.

Totally agree. When americans will understand that your interventinon is NOT wanted????
i don't know very much about China but i remember hearing that there were communist areas and capitalist areas in a documentary.
So, China is not communist, nor capitalist. Was totally communist but is slowly on transition to a capitalist economy. But now it has a bit of both.

I don't agree with communism as i don't like dictatorships. I think the ideal form of government would be a democratic communism. however, I'd rather live in a communist state than in a neo liberal state that privatices all it's companies and has puppet governments implanted by the USA. Of all the communist states i think cuba works pretty well.(not perfect)
Going on topic:
Usa hasn't got the right to critisice Cuba about death penalty as USA uses it to. Last year about 800 people were executted in USA, about 8 times the people excecutted in cuba. Why doesn't the UN talk about this??? Why doesn't the UN ask to put trade sanctions on USA???? Please stop manipullating the world and saying with hypocrisy that you defend democracy and that you ''free' countries like Irak because all the world knows about your lies.

Thud · April 17, 2003, 20:59

Yeah, pretty much SlowwHand, but I'm not so blunt. I try and convince the liberal scum that I have an open mind before I quash them under the yoke of sheer logic.

Seriously, some form of socialism could work, given unlikely circumstances, both economic and political. It might work economically in the US, but the political circumstances are not right, House Minority Leaders to the contrary. I don't think Communism has a chance in hell of ever working. Period. Not now, not anymore. It's like going back to having Kings, except a little more distressing to the rich. Not going to happen soon in any modern country.

SlowwHand · April 17, 2003, 21:02

Yo, South killer! Pull your teeth in.
WTF do you think Ned is? Pssst. American.
If he recognizes, and I recognize, keep your comments muted.

I just want Cuba to take our trash, in lieu of becoming 51st state.

Thud · April 17, 2003, 21:12

Quote:

Even Syria and Iraq are quasi-communist states. Some would even call them fascist.

Yes, its fascinating. Even my dictionary quotation described the rule of a Communist government as a dictatorship. Is that any real freedom? Is a 'democratic' communism possible? I think not.

Quote:

Usa hasn't got the right to critisice Cuba about death penalty as USA uses it to. Last year about 800 people were executted in USA, about 8 times the people excecutted in cuba.

Um... think of how many times larger the USA is than Cuba. End day 1 of Stats class.

Oh, and only 800? Thats nowhere near enough! Cubas got it right, firing squad. You see a drug dealer corrupting society, give him a mock trial and shoot him. Commies? Wipe them out. All of them.

As to the UN, what about our friend China's lovely invasion, occupation, and repression of Tibet, not to mention tortures, disappearence, etc. What does the UN do? Puts china on the friggen Human Rights Council!

SlowwHand · April 17, 2003, 21:19

Kill them. Kill them all. Eat dead burned bodies.

You know. Regular capitalist activity.

chequita guevara · April 17, 2003, 23:06

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Let me ask you this.
If, as the Chief Cook and Bottle Washer of a commie country, you decide you want a pair of Alligator boots that retail for $1000 bucks American money.

Leave my boots outta this.