Election: Foreign Affairs Minister

MrWhereItsAt · April 13, 2003, 21:38

Below you may vote for the First Foreign Affairs Minister of our new nation.

Your choices are:

GeneralTacticus
Kloreep
Banana

You have 5 days, so this closes about 0145GMT on Sat 19 April.

[banzai]
Place your bets NOWWWW!!!

[/banzai]

E_T · April 13, 2003, 22:11

I want to see an Campain before I vote....

E_T

BigFree · April 13, 2003, 22:22

Me too; I want to hear how they plan to have the 'ear' of opposing Nations and how they'll manipulate them into seeing things our way!

GeneralTacticus · April 13, 2003, 22:32

Okay, given that I actually seem to have got here before my opponent gets to post, for once...

I already have a good bit of experience in running the Fopreign Affairs department from the ACDG (even if that is a different game). I intend to poll on what our attitude should be towards them, and what, in general, we should be trying to get from them. I will then use this as a general guideline, to make sure that I'm doing (generally) what the people would like me to.

Assuming that the first term lasts long enough for us to get Writing, I will attempt to establish Embassies as soon as is practical; this will allow us to keep a much closer eye on the other civilizations, and will also give us a rough idea of where they are.

Again, assuming that our first term lasts long enough, I will attempt to gain the World Maps of as many Civs as possible, but I will be very cautious about handing over our own map, unless it is absolutely necessary. If we keep our own map to ourselves, there will be much less danger of other Civs sneaking settlers in to steal the good city spots, as they won't know they're there. For similar reasons, I won't be entering into RoP agreements until we have all our decent land settled and no longer need to worry about other civs stealing it.

If a war breaks out, I will attempt to (if possible) isolate the Civ we're at war with, possibly using Military Alliances if they won't reduce our options excessively, or if we need to distract them to survive. I will be keeping notes (as much as possible, anyway) on hos strong other Civs are compared to us, to allow us to make better decisions when people start making demands of us; if the other Civ i around our power level or higher, and makes a demand that won't cripple us, then I would support granting it, except in cases where they're too far off to be much of a threat.

That's about all I can think of for now. Any questions?

Kloreep · April 14, 2003, 01:47

I mostly agree with GeneralTacticus on strategy. Establish embassies once they have some value worth the cost (seeing a civ's capitol and/or signing treaties); don't trade our WM till much later in the game; and give in to demands from stronger civs (since this will be deity, that basically means anyone we aren't planning to take down in the near future...)

The only previous experiance I have in FA is checking for deals during a few turnchats in the last demogame; the only official DG positions I've held are Regional Advisor/Governor for Upper Apolyton in the first demogame (a deputy DM, IOW) and more recently, I was elected Master Builder of Legoland. But I want to expand beyond city planning and micromanaging, so I've chosen to run for FAM.

I plan to be at all turnchats/turnplays that fit in my schedule so that I can check for new techs/contacts etc. that other AI civs may have, and look for new trades that we can make with/for those commodities. But I don't know how many I'll be able to attend, so I'll likely appoint one (or even two) Vice Ministers who can sub for me if they're available when I'm not.

Anyway, that about sums it up. Hope I'm not incoherent; it's late at night here.

Edit: And yes, questions please.

This should be an interesting campaign.

Tarquinius · April 14, 2003, 08:28

How do you guys plan to keep up with the AI in research? I never played on deity level, but I heard it is very tough to keep up.
Do you want to buy all techs from the AI? (and if so, from what AI's do you buy? the strongest, the weakest, the ones farthest from us etc.)
Or do you want us to do our own research too?

GeneralTacticus · April 14, 2003, 08:35

Whether or not to do our own research isn't really my department (it's the President's choice, IIRC), but I'll want us to buy from whoever offers us the best deal (obviosuly); all things being equal, I'll want to buy form those Civs that are the least threat to us. However, I'd argue that we shouldn't try to buy everything, as there wil be techs we don't immediately need, and if everyone has them they'll be very cheap to research. In addition, I will argue in favour of building the Great Library if it is in any way possible.

Inverse Icarus · April 14, 2003, 11:52

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
If a war breaks out

just lost my vote

Inverse Icarus · April 14, 2003, 11:53

which one of you is more pro-war?

deity with 24 civs, we're going to need a bunch of early wars.

Beta · April 14, 2003, 12:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep
I mostly agree with GeneralTacticus on strategy.

So when the two candidates agree, the obvious result is a close election.

Hurray!

Kloreep · April 14, 2003, 17:05

Re: Tarquinius
I believe we should buy almost all of our techs; 100% research important and cheap ones like BW if necesseary, but otherwise, we should go 10% science/1 science specialist to take advantage of the 40 turns minimum rule.

I agree with GT we should buy from the weakest (or, later on, farther away civs we don't care about beefing up a little) civs, and that we should delay buying cutting-edge tech if we can; however, I disagree about researching them. Our one lone civ will only be able to do so much research, and on deity, our research is incredibly costly; whereas the AI will have a major advantage - AI civs will have normal research costs. Not to mention the free settler, which means a second city soonor, which means a second city tile full of free commerce sooner. So after we have waited for the AI to whore it around, it would be better to simply buy it; sure, we give some gold to an AI, but it's cheaper commerce-wise than research.

Of course, there is a rare exception to this: AIs have traded around techs we want, but have not yet acquired a new tech another AI has researched. In this case, it's best to snap up this new tech and then trade it around for techs, gold, maps, etc, being the civ to distribute it to all the AIs. This is the major reason I plan to either be at turnchats, or try to get a deputy to be there: so 1-turn opportunities don't slip past us. But this is pretty rare, and in general, I advocate delaying our tech purchases.

Re: UberKruX
From what I hear, deity is a cutthroat game under any circumstances; if we're going to be squished in with 24 civs, I advocate Archer-rushing as many our neighbors as possible, then continuing with swords; we'll need land. (Besides, the more civs we eliminate, the easier the job will be once we get tons of contacts post-Writing.

)

Hot Mustard · April 14, 2003, 17:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep
I advocate Archer-rushing as many our neighbors as possible, then continuing with swords; we'll need land. (Besides, the more civs we eliminate, the easier the job will be once we get tons of contacts post-Writing.

)

I don't forsee much Archer-rushing in this game. With an island hopping map (I believe BFM and Togas styled the map with the Archipelago, 80% water settings in mind), it is quite possible we won't have anyone on our starting island. Archer-rushes won't be as effective by the time we finish researching Alphabet, Writing, & Map Making by ourselves, not to mention having to find our neighbours.

I am test playing a SP game right now with our settings, and I was additionally sandbagged with having lots of ocean between me and all other land masses. The English just got the Great Lighthouse, so I think I'm pretty much screwed.

Octavian X · April 14, 2003, 18:18

I'd like to ask both candidates - what experience do you have, not in the DG, but in Civ3, with foreign affairs in deity games? How do you handle diplomacy in your own games - Do you extort when possible, bow down at the slightest pressure, etc.

Panag · April 14, 2003, 19:27

hi ,

wow

, 50 / 50

may the best man win

have a nice day

civman2000 · April 14, 2003, 21:02

My vote goes to Kloreep, a fellow DIA member

GeneralTacticus · April 14, 2003, 21:42

Quote:

which one of you is more pro-war?

deity with 24 civs, we're going to need a bunch of early wars.

I won't be demanding war the moment we find another civ, but if we can win the war and stand to gain something from it (or if, by some chance, we would have little trouble defeating the other civ) I'd be all for it.

Quote:

I'd like to ask both candidates - what experience do you have, not in the DG, but in Civ3, with foreign affairs in deity games? How do you handle diplomacy in your own games - Do you extort when possible, bow down at the slightest pressure, etc.

I actually don't have a great deal of experience playing Deity, but, like I said in my opening statement - if we encounter a civ which is militarily strogner than us, when we don't have the capacity to match them quickly, and they make I demand I would say we give in unless it's something outrageous; being attacked by, say, Germany while in the middle of REXing would royally screw us up, considering how hard it would be to match them.

However, once we developed the capability to take them on and win, I'd support going back and taking revenge on those civs that exploited us while we were weak

And just one other matter:

Quote:

I disagree about researching them. Our one lone civ will only be able to do so much research, and on deity, our research is incredibly costly; whereas the AI will have a major advantage - AI civs will have normal research costs. Not to mention the free settler, which means a second city soonor, which means a second city tile full of free commerce sooner. So after we have waited for the AI to whore it around, it would be better to simply buy it; sure, we give some gold to an AI, but it's cheaper commerce-wise than research.

If we can get the tech at a reasonable price, then of course we should, but researching it 10% or even higher will allow us to get it at a better price, as it will become cheaper and we'll sill be piling up the gold. And do remember that if the AIs have whored it around a lot, and we have contact with a few civs and they all have it, then it will be quite easy to research as well as to buy.

So, basically, my philosophy on tech buying/researching is to buy it if we can at a reasonable price or if we need it now; if we can't and don't, research it slowly until we can or do.

Kloreep · April 15, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by dejon
I don't forsee much Archer-rushing in this game. With an island hopping map (I believe BFM and Togas styled the map with the Archipelago, 80% water settings in mind), it is quite possible we won't have anyone on our starting island. Archer-rushes won't be as effective by the time we finish researching Alphabet, Writing, & Map Making by ourselves, not to mention having to find our neighbours.

Good point. While I'd say we should assume we're on the same island as another civ till proved otherwise - just to be safe - we might not have any early trading partners.

If that's the case, we should probably use 10% science for Alphabet and/or Writing, till we have some decent research capacity. But this is in the DM's field...

Quote:

Originally posted by Octavian X
I'd like to ask both candidates - what experience do you have, not in the DG, but in Civ3, with foreign affairs in deity games? How do you handle diplomacy in your own games - Do you extort when possible, bow down at the slightest pressure, etc.

No experience in Deity games. I'll be honest: I play at Warlord and Regent. IMO, this is just because I don't play much SP, and I think I could climb to Monarch after a few more games thanks to all I've been learning in the DGs. But I can't prove that till I actually do it.

I DO have experience with foreign affairs, though. I know the basics of AI GPT deals, and I intend to review BamSpeedy's debug experiments soon.

In my SP games, I generally give in to demands from AIs that I view as a military threat (ones that are on the same continent and either have a powerful contemporary UU or have managed to build a stronger military), or on whom I'm depending for, say, a vital luxury at the moment. I write them down for future punishment,

but only take my revenge when I feel I'm ready and not sacrificing too much for the sake of it.

It also depends on what the demand is. If it's 25 gold, I may give in to it just to maintain good relations and get the civ off my back; but if the AI demands hundreds of gold and several techs to boot, I usually refuse, even if I may have to go to war for it. Of course, this being deity, we should be much more willing to give in to demands in the early game; we must pick and choose our wars, since they will be against more powerful, albeit stupid, opponents.

Quote:

Originally posted by civman2000
My vote goes to Kloreep, a fellow DIA member

Err... I've never been a DIA member, but thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
If we can get the tech at a reasonable price, then of course we should, but researching it 10% or even higher will allow us to get it at a better price, as it will become cheaper and we'll sill be piling up the gold. And do remember that if the AIs have whored it around a lot, and we have contact with a few civs and they all have it, then it will be quite easy to research as well as to buy.

It will be quite easy to research as well as buy, but not if we do 10% science. In that case, the advantage of cheaper tech won't matter much; we'll probably only net a maximum of 3-5 beakers from 10% in the early game, which isn't enough to do much for the costlier techs like the alphabet branch - which is what we should use our 10% research on, IMO, in order to make maximum use of the 40-turn limit advantage.

Quote:

So, basically, my philosophy on tech buying/researching is to buy it if we can at a reasonable price or if we need it now; if we can't and don't, research it slowly until we can or do.

I agree that acquiring unnecessary techs should be delayed, but, as I've said, I still think buying it when we want it later is the way to go. While researching it is cheaper after contact with others who know the tech, the price also goes down, and so it stays cheaper commerce-wise than researching the tech.

Thud · April 15, 2003, 19:31

Maintaining a careful balancing act, Thud breaks the tie in GeneralTacticus's favor here, but breaks it in favor of the opponent in his election for Pope of Spain.

Beta · April 15, 2003, 21:37

Pope elections!!??

Spain needs a good war to give them somthing to do.

Klo and GT - great debate and great race. A fine way to start the demo game.

Thud · April 15, 2003, 21:59

Hey, everyone who wasn't a Duke got to be a Cardinal- that had to mean something!

Anywho, yes quite. You both have given a good effort, and the suspense is painful.

GeneralTacticus · April 15, 2003, 22:00

Quote:

It will be quite easy to research as well as buy, but not if we do 10% science. In that case, the advantage of cheaper tech won't matter much; we'll probably only net a maximum of 3-5 beakers from 10% in the early game, which isn't enough to do much for the costlier techs like the alphabet branch - which is what we should use our 10% research on, IMO, in order to make maximum use of the 40-turn limit advantage.

Note the 'or even higher' bit, if it would actually be useful. However, as you said, this is the DM's/President's field, not the FAM's.

Quote:

I agree that acquiring unnecessary techs should be delayed, but, as I've said, I still think buying it when we want it later is the way to go. While researching it is cheaper after contact with others who know the tech, the price also goes down, and so it stays cheaper commerce-wise than researching the tech.

Well, if later on we need it right away, of course we should buy it, and we probably will, it may be cheap enough to research ourselves, either compeltely or just partially so we can buy it mroe easily. However, this would all depend on the situation.

Rasbelin · April 16, 2003, 04:50

Voted for GT as he seems to be a good choice.

GodKing · April 17, 2003, 17:27

Actually - science / tax ratios and what to research fall under the Prez if we use the previous con.

Good race. Still haven't decided....

Kloreep · April 17, 2003, 18:30

The only difference between us so far seems to be buying vs. researching techs - I advocate buying as many of our techs as we can (waiting for the price to go down if we don't need them immediately) and researching only expensive techs (at 10%) or techs no one has researched yet; whereas GT advocates researching techs we don't need immediately on our own.

GT, what's your policy on signing deals durnig turnchats? Where do you draw the line between deals that should be signed immediately during the chat, and important trades that should wait?

I would make any tech, map, etc. deals I could find during the chat that seem time-limited (would fall through if I waited for senate backing after chat); deals that could wait (buying an old tech) and important deals (military alliances, huge trades involving our whole treasury) would wait (I would ask the Prez to stop the chat if I felt an important deal also required immediate signing).

GeneralTacticus · April 17, 2003, 21:09

Quote:

GT, what's your policy on signing deals durnig turnchats? Where do you draw the line between deals that should be signed immediately during the chat, and important trades that should wait?

If an opportunity came up for a deal that wouldn't last to the end of the chat and would be very beneficial to us (say we got contact with a Civ from another part of the world, and they were about to meet a Civ from our area), then I'd say we should just whore it around immediately, as otherwise we'll lose the opportunity; but anything that will keep to the end of the chat, will wait until then (However, I'll be putting up polls for some general guidelines on what to do in such cases, so that we have some freedom of action).

Panag · April 18, 2003, 10:21

Quote:

Originally posted by GodKing
Actually - science / tax ratios and what to research fall under the Prez if we use the previous con.

Good race. Still haven't decided....

hi ,

, a poll for each next tech , the P should play each turn with the science bar and the ministery of science should get an absolute minimum each turn , ....

no lower then 50 % the first techs

have a nice day

GeneralTacticus · April 19, 2003, 00:32

Victory! I'm on a roll today; I wonder else I can win...

MrWhereItsAt · April 19, 2003, 01:21

Congrats GT! And to you too Kloreep - a very well-fought campaign. This looks to be just about the closest result for the elections. I hope you will aim to get involved as much as you can.

Kloreep · April 19, 2003, 12:34

Congrats GT.

And yes, I still plan to be involved.

Panag · April 19, 2003, 19:10

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

Victory! I'm on a roll today; I wonder else I can win...

hi ,

, well get us what we need , and get rid of what we dont want , ......

no rop's , spy all the time , dont give in to some stupid demands , well that should be it

congrats

have a nice day

panag > hands over some banana for the party