SMAC 2

[Diva]

SMAC/X is the only game I play. It has been out for a few years and I think it should be time to design a sequel for it.

What do you think should be in the new game?

[Alinestra Covelia]

I have a very short list of what should definitely be taken OUT of the sequel.

The letters SM in the title.

Attributing Sid Meier to this game would only hurt sales.

How ironic. Back in '98, they put his name on it so it would increase sales... How the passage of time (and an amazingly poor Civ sequel) can hurt one's reputation...

[Alex]

A rare occurrence... two girls posting in the same thread, one after the other!

Well, I agree with Allie... but in a deeper sense. Firaxis could not and should not be allowed to touch a potential SMAC sequel. If at least Brian could be interested in doing it... but he is far too busy playing with his new toy.

[lethe]

The ability to set up world creation the way you can in Freeciv.

Ie, "I want 4 players and 3 ai. So do a map with 7 major islands, place each player on an island of his own, and the same for the ai. Then add a few smaller islands for expansion."

Or, I want 2 human players, each sharing a continent with 2 AI factions. Add in a few small to medium sized islands.

I just LOVE the world building precision in Freeciv.

For smac it would be nice to de-select landmarks from a list, say excluding jungle.

But that's more Smac 1.5 than Smac 2. I'd very much like to see some serious evolution before the next game.

Oh, another 1.5 upgrade. Make units NOT move when you give them orders, instead everyone gives all their units orders, then moves are executed simultaneously. (Like in Stars!) This would speed up a big multiplayer pbem by a factor of 7 or so. Add in a central place, or include servers the players can run, where turns can be submitted, and a clock set to generate even if not all turns are in. This is all ripped from the truly EXCELLENT multiplayer of Stars!

Not moving units, but instead ordering em would also allow those of us who are human enough to sometimes move a unit to the wrong tile more time to consider if we really want an unarmoured former stepping into the path of a demon boil or not. (I did it twice in my second to last game.)

I am divided on it, but it might be a good idea to allow build ques for formers. So you can number squares in importance, and tell formers what to do there. That would allow some fire and forget forming. (Or just switch to public works, right about the only thing good to come out of ctp.)

Being able to make real groups of units that move together would be preferable. Perhaps armies in the civ 3 vein, more so you can just move a stack instead of moving 200 individual units.

All of these are mere tweaks to the civ genre, not reinventing it majorly.

[Hydro]

After seeing what has happened to some of my favorite titles in the recent past (Civ, Moo) I am wary of asking for a SMAC2. Allie is right, however – certain people should not be allowed within light years of BR’s brain child. I do not want SMAC lobotomized like Civ3, or suffer from painful and likely fatal scope creep like Moo3. In short, the vision of the original game needs to be intact and the modified with great care. No sledge hammers or ‘cool ideas’ allowed unless they fit the genre.

That said, I offer a few things I’d like to see unchanged (or essentially the same):
* Story line – keep this fresh, and at least as well integrated into the story line as BR made it. This is so key I for me can’t emphasize it enough since it has allowed the game to be fresh for so long for me. If this had been poorly done SMAC would have been a drink coaster long ago.
* Balance – keep the clear ideologies and agendas of the factions, with the well defined pros and cons; tie this into the story line (above) as BR did. In my opinion SMAX undid some of this brilliance even if it allowed more options – the SMAX world makes less ‘sense’ in my opinion, and some of the factions are just plain silly (pirates, angels).
* Thoughtful tech tree – SMAC did not devolve like Moo3 has done. Each tech is meaningful, and even poignant with the excellent faction quotes associated with each one (I especially love Yang’s quotes – brilliant, if frightening)

What to modify (I hesitate to say change):
* Combat system – some techs are too abrupt (airpower) or overpowered (copters). The difference between reactors seems steep, too. But maybe this is OK – look at the US vs Iraq, and then let’s discuss technical disparity…
* Visuals – the SMAC world is a bit stark. This artwork could be improved. But, keep the pseudo 3-D, please. And, no fuffy eye candy please – make any changes make sense: update and improve.
* Movement – this is a problem with all CIV games. Why does it take a year for an infantry to move one ‘sector’? And foils only go 4 sectors? I’m at a loss on how to make this more ‘realistic’, but I’m sure someone can figure something out that isn’t too arcane

[CEO Aaron]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Alpha Centauri 2, as long as the scope of the changes was limited to refining/improving the core game, like the change from Civ to Civ II. What's needed is a smarter AI, better graphics supporting higher resolutions (still waiting for a turn-based game I can play at my desktop resoultion of 1600 x 1200), and a refined tech tree, fixing some of the more nonsensical aspects of it. I'd like to see deep pressure hull available with Doctrine: Initiative instead of Nanometallurgy (yes, we can send up orbital probes and build planetbuster missiles, but can't master technology pioneered in the 1800s), and some re-tooling of the reactor-types wouldn't be too bad either. By the time you get to quantum reactors, the game is all but over.

But more important is the things that shouldn't be changed, as has been touched on by other posters to this thread: Customizable SE combinations, custom unit design, etc.

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, however.

[Lazerus]

I always end up getting singularity reactors before quantum chambers for some reason

Things I'd like to see:
Improved AI (of course) get some people to actually play the game and find strategies, then teach these to the AI before releasing!
Improve the council, since it was meant to be like a UN give a few more actions, sanctions, outlaw a faction from voting etc
Allow some sort of way to improve your integrity, not using nerve gas when an opponent is or something. Mayve a probe op on this, propoganda, telling the world a leader is nerve stapling or hoarding nerve gas
A more advanced automated former, ie telling it to build mines on rocky squares,condensors on nutrients etc. ... stupid formers i want boreholes not solar collectors 50m above sea level !!!!

[Hydro]

Oh, one more thing that has always bugged me: SMAC ignores the conservation of matter. Think of it – when you terraform, where does all that dirt come from or go? Hmmm? Now, if you could do these things and take them from somewhere else I wouldn’t have a problem. That would likely make a supreme mess of any surficial terraforming (farms, forest, etc), as well it should!!

Another gripe – melting the ice caps would hardly cover every square meter with water in a worst-case scenario. It would raise sea levels and cause massive climatic changes, however.

There also is a small problem of ‘drilling to an aquifer’ and making a river. Is there a solution for this one? I don’t think so. But who am I to be judgmental?

[Hendrik]

Honestly I think SMAC intersects perfectly between realism and playability. There are so many logical problems with trying to look at the gameplay of SMAC in relation to real life... what happens when someone with 20 size 1 bases gets the PTS? How do you triple the working population of a city in a year? The list goes on... my point is that making games overly realistic isn't a worthwhile goal when it sacrifices gameplay.

All I would want in SMAC 2 is the same depth of philosophical thought, Reynolds did an excellent portrayal of different ways of looking at the universe and the human experience. This is SMAC's saving grace that isn't really comparable to any other game I have heard of, it makes the game worthwhile despite the bugs and micromanagement.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I loved the storyline of SMAC.

I believe that the success of SMAC's storyline is one of the largest obstacles to a successful SMAC 2. After all, what storyline could you come up with to better that?

[Frankychan]

I think, given my reservations, a sequel to SMAC would work. Like everyone has said, certain things would have to go from the game as well as the development.

Two things that I like the most about SMAC is the dynamics of the factions. Each has a certain ideology that sustains them and gives each faction leader a certain personality. Example: every AC player knows Miriam is an irritating beyond belief. I think the ideology of each faction is what draws many players to keep playing it....you find which ideology you agree with, and stick with it.

The other thing that I believe makes SMAC such a strong game is the complex diplomacy. There are so many angles in intra-faction relations that it keeps players on their toes. Even human-human diplomacy is unique because you can have many different options to choose from.

Just my opinions. I also agree with Alinestra in that AC's storyline is very strong and trying to make a sequel to it may be it's largest roadblock.

[Diva]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
How ironic. Back in '98, they put his name on it so it would increase sales... How the passage of time (and an amazingly poor Civ sequel) can hurt one's reputation...

Really? It doesn't look that bad to me. I haven't play Civilization 3 or any of the previous titles in the series. It sold quite well though.

Isn't Big Huge Games doing only RTS? That would be a pity if no sequel is coming out. Alpha Centauri deserves at least an upgrade.

[Paul02]

I'd like to see more factions to be allowed i, like 10 or so

[Kaptain Ken]

All of the above

But the bottom line as CEO Aaron says is :
Don't hold your breath

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
I loved the storyline of SMAC.

I believe that the success of SMAC's storyline is one of the largest obstacles to a successful SMAC 2. After all, what storyline could you come up with to better that?

"The return to Earth" is a logical storyline for a sequel. There are many variations on this theme that could provide for an excellent sequel. For example, the story could go that prior to transcendance, a group of humans formed a new faction that believed that mankind should return to Earth. They build a spaceship and return to Earth and discover that there was a small band of survivors. While humans were building a new society on Planet (SMAC storyline), these survivors built their own new and strange society on Earth.

The game would be about rebuilding civilization on Earth and finding about exactly what happened to Earth after the Alpha Centauri mission. Finding out what happened to mankind after armageddon could be a very rich part of the storyline. The player could explore the map for "artifacts" that would provide clues presented like the SMAC interludes.

[CEO Aaron]

Wow, that's a really cool idea, actually. I'm totally into it.

[Alinestra Covelia]

You could have another continuation whereby the Planet mind decides to try to colonize other planets and terraform them.

Actually, you could do a lot of stuff with the game. There's like five ways of completing it, and you could do a sequel where you've got five factions, each of which completed the original game in the different ways, and now trying to work through the galaxy.

One could be a Planetmind transcend, one could be a military conquistador, one could be an economic giant, and one could be a diplomatic unifier.

Of course the Progenitors are a big unanswered question. The sequel would show how they figure into things.

As for me, I'm really looking forward to the inclusion of the Evil Galactic Empire and their new Death Star superweapon.

[Sandman]

I'd like...

Good graphics. So long as it doesn't seriously impact gameplay, the more eye-candy the better. Mountains that look real, ice-caps, animated rivers and shorelines (like in Civ1), lush looking forests, attractive-looking terraforming, fungus that's not a pink smear, swirling oceans, special resources that don't look like placeholder art, the list is endless.

A flexible base radius system, whereby you have more freedom to place bases without the need for crawlers to fill the gaps, etc. For example, you could place a ring of bases around a lake without having to worry about them overcrowding, since their radii would meld into new shapes.

A new resource system. If we're being really ambitious, it could be like the one outlined in the Merchant Exchange movie, with each rare element having it's own price. More mundanely, fresh water could be a potential resource, with irrigating dry land requiring a source of water, be it a condensor, aquifer, reservoir, desalination plant (which requires energy), etc.

Certain civ throwbacks should be removed in my opinion, such the defence rating determined by armour, or the minor tribes/unity pods.

[Qualicide]

Make sea lurks easier to catch.

[Frankychan]

make planet busters larger...

[gwillybj]

A Return-to-Earth mission is already part of SMAC, although you don't actually get to play it out. Instead, if another faction Transcends, you are called to a new command:

(from Interlude.txt):
#EPILOGUE2
#xs 400
^^
^^EPILOGUE
^
^^from
^
^^The Book of Planet
^
^^M.Y. $NUM2 (Seed Year 1)
^
^

#INTERLUDE18
#xs 500
#caption Epilogue
^ The cold-sleep unit finally cycles open and you stretch muscles rusty from decades of computer-managed disuse. But they are young muscles, shockingly young, and it will be a pleasure to beat them back into shape. Orbital insertion begins and you tingle with the excitement of your new mission and with the joy of having returned to human form. Yes, you left a copy of your personality among the Planetmind's giant matrix, but this copy, this human being $NAME1 now waking to lead the first Seed mission, this is the only self now immediate to you and therefore the only real you. You are flesh again, and so quite mortal, and for this too you rejoice.
^ You despaired when Planet invited $NAME5 to join its dominant self, and for a decade or more you moped about the bizarre virtual reality of the Undermind with no coherent purpose, a lost spirit unable to die. But when the Seed missions began, the Voice/Planet personality herself sought you out in the abyss and convinced you to accept command of the {Prodigal Son}.
^ "Earth$NAME3, you are unfulfilled here and I have need of you. In ages to come I shall have need of allies, sister Minds, if I am to keep the flame of conscious thought from guttering out as the universe contracts or else expands to dust. Take with you the gift of life, the seeds of all our species. Spread them to the stars, across the galaxies, creating new civilizations, new minds, and enlisting the aid of any you encounter. Go forth, Earth$NAME3. Go forth and multiply."
^ The maneuver at last complete, the safety shutters retract from the viewport and you behold a sight lost to human eyes for over $NUM3 centuries. Deep blues, swirling whites, the azure tint of a rich oxygen atmosphere. Inviting browns and greens of continents basking in the sun, a few scattered impact craters the only visible signs of a war now buried in the aeons. Third planet. Earth. Home.

I suppose a new game could be written wherein you return to that future Earth with all the knowledge gained on Chiron, intending to "reclaim" it for "enlightened" humanity, only to discover it was not depopulated.
Rather, humans are still there, however changed they may be by time and circumstance, or another species has risen to a level of cognitive intelligence at the very least on par with homo sapiens of centuries long forgotten, and you may or may not be welcomed by any or all of them.
Let your own imagination take it from there...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by gwillybj
I suppose a new game could be written wherein you return to that future Earth with all the knowledge gained on Chiron, intending to "reclaim" it for "enlightened" humanity, only to discover it was not depopulated.
Rather, humans are still there, however changed they may be by time and circumstance, or another species has risen to a level of cognitive intelligence at the very least on par with homo sapiens of centuries long forgotten, and you may or may not be welcomed by any or all of them.
Let your own imagination take it from there...

A Return to Earth sequel definitely has huge potential. The only tricky part may be the tech tree. Would the Earth survivors be more or less advanced than the humans on Chiron? Would the tech tree "start from scratch" or would it continue where the SMAC tree left off?

[Alex]

Originally posted by The diplomat

A Return to Earth sequel definitely has huge potential. The only tricky part may be the tech tree. Would the Earth survivors be more or less advanced than the humans on Chiron? Would the tech tree "start from scratch" or would it continue where the SMAC tree left off?

I would post the exact same concern. How would the developers handle the tech tree? It doesn't seem plausible that the voyagers could lose all the knowledge gathered in Chiron, forcing them to start from scratch, and a tech tree that continued from where the SMAC tree left off would be really trick... It is not that easy to project future technologies beyond the ones that SMAC already projects, and there is a risk that those techs would end up being too abstract and disconnected from the actual improvements that they would grant in the game.

[Xian]

forget a sequel, simply release the source code as id did with doom (another classic game)

[Ned]

I really like SMACx. I could live with the game as it is with a better AI and a simple correction of known bugs.

[A_Darkfire]

I really like the idea of the Return to Earth...

You could 'wipe-out' the tech tree and start from SMAC's starting point. On the return trip instead of having control landings, like (sort of) SMAC, why not escape pod (large ones mind) that leave the survivors with only minimal supplies. It would be kind of like the tech for getting back into space...it's not that we don't know how, it's just we don't have the resources.

Plot wise, it would be good if, on returning to Earth, that you find no-one left there, and running plot would be the discovery of what happened to the Human race on Earth...maybe nature finally had enough of us!

I doubt there will be a new game though, after the mess of Civ3 and MoO3...pity really. Though if they release the source code for AC...

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Alexnm

It doesn't seem plausible that the voyagers could lose all the knowledge gathered in Chiron, forcing them to start from scratch, and a tech tree that continued from where the SMAC tree left off would be really trick...

It never seemed plausible to me that they would lose all the technology in the first place, but it really doesn't matter I suppose.

Perhaps they could reintroduce the energy vs projectile weapons/armor concept back into the game, as earth probably would have gone a different route in tech development.

[CEO Aaron]

I've always held that it wasn't so much the ability handle the theory behind new technology, but the implementation. For example, most folks on this board know that gasoline (petrol for your non-yanks) comes from light sweet crude oil, but I doubt any of us could actually _make_ it happen under laboratory conditions.

Nevertheless, the realism or lack thereof behind the game is really only incidental to me, as long as the gameplay is balanced and fun, giving folks numerous tactical and strategic options.

To that end, I think some balance changes would be nice, such as re-visiting the accessability of armor to defense technology, making submersible vessels available sooner, and mitigating the almightiness of choppers.

For more fun, I'd also consider getting away from the square grid, moving to a hex-grid, just to complicate things. I don't think that a second SMAC game would necessarily have to be a sequel, just as long is it had substantial upgrades/improvements, especially in graphics over the current version.

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron

For more fun, I'd also consider getting away from the square grid, moving to a hex-grid, just to complicate things.

An option for hex or square would be an interesting feature for a game, although I imagine it would be difficult to implement, esp. for AI path-finding.

[Cybergod]

Note to self: wow i really haven't posted here a long time...

Well, I don't really understand why everyone denounces Civ3 as a "complete" abomination. Certain aspects of it, such as the vastly improved bargaining table and cool AI should be integrated into any future Civ-like developments.

BTW, there were several threads on this TIME ago. It seems that none of the game developers will ever take hints.