Sticking It Out

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Everyone, even the best players, suffer setbacks during their civ game. The best of the best will generally stick it out and turn the upset into gain. Mere mortals such as myself will generally bail out of any game where we don't achieve what some around here call "UP": Ultimate Power.

The question of this thread is, how severe a setback do you have to suffer in order to quit? How do you know how severe a setback is? What is the best way to turn losing a city into an advantage?

I wanted to bring in some screenshots, but for some reason, I can't seem to capture them, so I'll describe my initial example instead (please, offer any examples you can think of). Playing as the Russians on a huge world with 16 civs, I started in fertile land on a continent with all the European powers. Thankfully, most were far away from me, except the Germans, who I out-REXed utterly. My civ came along nicely, dominating in culture if a bit out-classed militarily. I build two cities, Astrakhan and Tblisi, on the "other side" of Germany, which was to the West of my "homeland". These came along nicely too, until the Germans sent a HUGE group of veteran archers straight towards Astrakhan.

They razed the city, and for a second, I thought about quitting. After all, I had NO offensive units, aside from one archer. But I had put too much into the game. So I began cranking out horsemen (all regulars) and built a wall in Tblisi. I urged MAs against the Germans, and surprisingly, they took the bait. Their archers could easily have taken Tbilsi and several of my "core" cities, but the AI couldn't get their act together, and through prolonged assaults by regular horsemen and, eventually, veteran knights, I wiped Germany out.

Had I succumbed to my initial despair, it would have been back to the drawing board. But I stuck it out, and now I'm on top of the world.

So, my first question to all of you experts is: how do you know your behind is grass? And how do you know you can make a comeback?

I know the question is a little vague, but hopefully this will stoke some interesting conversation.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Well I may be the anti-expert at Civ3, but I felt compelled to post.

I have just been attempting (for about the 5th time) to play as the Ottomans long enough to see the Sipahi in action. This game was going well, and me with Iron, Horses and 3 lux where several nearby civs had none of either resource.

Then out of bloody nowhere the Persians are at wat with me. I have some early successes with Warriors and Swords in the jungles between our cities, then build up a force of Swords to take it to them. Upon reaching their cities they swarm me with zillions of Archers (they had no Iron!) that halts my advance. Never mind, almost all my cities are cranking military out. But then I try to change to Monarchy, expecting a 3 or so turn delay (used to Regent). I am stuck with about 8 turns of no production, in which time my army arrives at Sidon and enters the killing fields. Archers galore and Horses take out three or four swords on hills, and THEN they get Iron and send in the Immortals.

Long time friends who I have donated much tribute to declare war and things are looking to be far too annoying to continue.

I have just managed to change to Monarchy, have started building Medieval Infantry and am about 10 turns away from Chivalry (I have tech superiority, just), and my army is completely gone. I got fully fed up then and just plain quit. I have the autosave, but it will take some steely resolve for me to face that again.

Mistakes I can handle, it's just when the whole frigging game goes against you. All it takes is several hundred years of disastrous luck and my tolerance is gone.

Or maybe it's 'cos it's almost 3am here and I should be at work around 9 tomorrow.

I will vote for the option where someone gets an absolute must wonder ahead of me, but more often I give up 'cos a war I didn't instigate results in me losing my whole attacking force and where I end up at war with those who were my friends in the war to beign with.

[UnOrthOdOx]

The only time I quit is when victory is already assured, I rarely care to actually finish the final turns of wiping out already defeated civs. Otherwise, I face up to the disgraced notice from the game.

Last night, as Rome isolated on an island Emperor, AU mod, PTW 1.14. No lux, no Iron, no GUNPOWDER, and no civ within safe galley distance lead to me losing a few cities to the accursed Vikings, which were quickly retaken (thankfully Berserks do not defend well) and suiciding many, many Longbows against the fortified Musketeers of the Iriquios to my north. However, I now boast Iron, Horses, Gunpowder and Coal. Just pulled even in tech and have activated my GA. Time to see about securing myself some Lux's...take out the easy technologically backwards Celts to the west for a route up through the Ottomans and Carthage with only carthage offering true resistance, or revenge on the Vikings to the east for a foothold on what is the major landmass with 6 civs... I am still near the bottom in terms of the power graph and the score.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

It's funny you should mention the Ottomans vs. the Persians, because I remember one notable instance - my first regent game - where I REXed very well, but was completely enmeshed with the Persian empire. The Persians attacked and triggered their golden age, destroying one small town and taking another. They had 1 source of iron, on a well-defended town on a hillside, surrounded by mountains!

But I was determined not to lose, so I send med. inf. after med. inf. to Susa, and - lo and behold! - took it!

The rest of the war was a real meatgrinder, and memorable to me because it was the first game where I used med. inf.s and then knights well.

But on Monarch level, I might have lost the whole thing. It was close.

Yeah, when I lose a massive attack force, it can be enough for me to toss in the towel too. More often, due to my personal style, I'll be in the lead tech wise and have many wonders, but will suddenly see a bunch of archers or swordsmen heading my way, and within a few turns the whole world'll be at my throat. That can be aggravating...

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

I voted for 'when I'm outclassed in every aspect', but actually this never happens playing 'emperor'.

Deity is another case, but then again, I don't like deity games at all.

Another good reason to stop is when YOU yourself are outclassing all other civs (was this an option, have to look back) and challenges are diminished to zero. No reason to continue to play than IMO.

I'd vote for the'if my girlfriend leaves me' option too, but then again, she already has


AJ

[Thirgaral]

GIRLFRIEND!!! When she starts to complain, it is not good....besides that...I´m too proud to surrender

But where´s the banana option?

[GarP2]

I would vote for this option. The first game I played of PTW (only a few games ago) I chose the Ottomans because of the Sipahi. I was doing very well before I got them, expanding, gathering luxuries, ahead in tech, etc., and did an almost perfectly-planned upgrade of many horsemen as soon as I got MT. Just then, the Celts attacked and took one of my small almost worthless outskirt cities, and I retaliated with 15-20 Sipahi, which I used to surround two of their cities. I started pounding and found that I could not defeat cities defended by 2-3 spearmen. This went on for about 10 turns with me hardly winning any of the combats, and spearmen defeating one Sepahi after another, turn after turn. Finally, a handful of their archers zipped in on roads and dispatched my few remaining Sepahi (4 or 5). Of course maybe I should have retreated and tried something else, but I couldnt believe it! The statistics are unfathomable.

I quit in disgust, dropped back to Regent, and changed Civs.

GarP

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

HA! That would make me quit in disgust too, but that sort of thing happens all the time to me!

I also almost NEVER generate leaders with my elites. And who here has not lost an elite cavalry to a weakened regular spearman in a city?

I should have added "pure bad luck" as an answer to the poll, that's for sure.

[TheArsenal]

One more choice in the poll should have been "Any of the Above, If It Stops Being Fun".

Far from an expert myself, but there are a few factors that will make me give in if I stop having fun (although I can never quite make myself "Retire" and have save games I will never go back to, but can't make myself delete). But the biggest is watching my empire get wiped. I just can't bear to watch hours/days of play go down in smoky ruin.

The last game I quit, two days ago, I was Japan on basically a single (large map) continent with 8 other Civs. It was one of those games where a handful of AI civs decide to eat the other ones alive out of the starting gate. The game was from beginning, to when I decided to quit, war. Early on I played an opportunist game, and allied with the dominant attacking civs. Using Samurai, I parked stacks next to cities, and when the AI weakened them enough, I went in for the kill. Didn't get every city I wanted this way, the AI took a few, but I ended up with considerably more, at considerably less unit cost, than I would have going it alone. And their attitude indicated they were happy to have me in the coalition.

After the dust clears, and hundreds of years go by, the remaining civs, the Mongols, Carthage, and Greece were Polite, and MPP partner China Gracious, an attitude I rarely see. At this point, militarily, culturally, but not quite technologically, I am the dominant nation.

Then the worm turns ... my former allies attitude towards me all sour over a short period ... to the point where they won't even take bribes. Then Mongolia and China attack me out of the blue. Well, not so much out of the blue, because when they won't accept a bribe, its always trouble soon. The attack I don't mind so much. It's the price you pay for being the dominant power in the game. My cities were adequately, but not overly, well defended. And separately from the defensive units garrisoned in my cities, I kept a large attack force of Calvary in the middle of my nation to quickly meet any potential trouble head on. And once war started, Greece joined me in the fray, but was too weak to keep the dogs of war off me to any great degree.

Then I had one of those series of turns where my superior units were falling like flies to inferior ones. Soon my entire attack force was gone. And my cities under siege. Many of which, because I played this (questionable) opportunist game, were isolated inside other empires. That is when, I had enough

[Catt]

IMHO, one of the biggest stumbling blocks to moving up in difficulty levels is entirely mental -- it is quite easy to believe your position to be hopeless and the game to be lost. But if you play these games out (sometimes doing all you can to maintain that "never say die" attitude), you may very well soon come to the realization that the situation wasn't hopeless - not by a longshot - it was only your inexperience with the in-game effects of the challeneges of the difficulty level. Trying to play out lost positions can be a very valuable learning experience.

All that said, I agree with TheArsenal that the right time is "when it stops being fun."

Catt

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!!

I'm sure we all have stories like that we could tell. I remember one game the superpower I made Babylon out to be... I just kept signing MAs against them, and invariably my allies were swallowed whole by Babylon! As Rome, my ending power was unquestionable, but so was Babylon's! If it hadn't been for these two chokepoints, I'm sure a bloody, pointless war would have ensued...

Maybe we should just retitle this thread "Stories of Despair".

[ZargonX]

Well, a situation where I'm done is something like what happened just a few moments ago. Small island, I'm the Iroquois, starting next to the Romans. I have four cities, the Romans have four cities. The Romans have 2 iron next to their two largest cities. I have no Iron. No Horses except far to the south, desperately trying to get them connected. A few more years pass, and WHAM. Roman sneak attack on my borders as a wave of 10 or so Legionaries and a few support archers comes sweeping in. One city down... two cities down... my counter-attacks don't even phaze them. 7 squares out from my capital, and no reinforcements for me coming any time soon. Quitting time, as I see it.

[Solver]

I never seem to quit, almost. If I'm winning, I take it to the actual victory. If losing... well, I almost always wait till the AI takes all my cities... also a pleasure to see the AI beat me.

Well, a time when I quite prematurely was a Regent game, when I just started that, where I had a terrible start with the French, and it was late Middle ages for me - just discovered the Military Tradition. Everyone else, though, was in inudstrial, and I had no Saltpeter anyway. Damn Greeks declare war, march in with a ton of Riflemen and some Cavalry... not looking good! I hold on somehow, hoping to get to Riflemen soon myself, but then I see that Greeks have signed an alliance with the Aztecs... and those guys bring Infantry in! Time to quit...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Seems as though we've all had our time.

The Vikings, with their "awesome" berserkir unit, brought me a fair number of quits after I REXed too hard and either the Celts or the Russians or even the English brought stacks of veteran archers... that's the hardest for me.

In my first horsemen-only war ever, I took all of France, and then Russia, only to lose Sistine's and Leo's both 1 TURN EACH to the Indians.



That is what makes me quit. Sure, sure, I could have poured ALL my efforts into taking down India, with its two sources of iron and its 30 cities. But then I'd fall behind in the tech race, and I'd still have the Celties nearby...

[Solver]

I can see quitting of frustration for a period of time... but in an hour or two, I'll go and launch the game again .

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Solver
I can see quitting of frustration for a period of time... but in an hour or two, I'll go and launch the game again .

Me too. And that's why we're very, very sick men.

I'm making myself play as each civ until I win as them at least once... I'm going through the Europeans right now... suffice it to say, I'm quitting about as much as I'm winning, or more so.

[TheArsenal]

My long thread above notwithstanding, I guess it boils down to this:

I don't mind being attacked, I don't mind having cities taken from me. If my production is strong enough, I'll slog it out. I accept I won't always win. But if I find large/huge numbers of units falling to far lesser ones, and find myself yelling "OH C'MON THAT'S JUST NOT FAIR!" too many times during the course of a highly losing battle - restart it is. That's when I'm not having fun.

But, for some reason, I don't seem to mind when one of my infantrymen manages to kill four of the AI soldiers.

[badams52]

I said girlfriend...but she's actually my wife. I agree with Catt, it's always best to slug it out.

The one time I ended up quitting was back when I just got the game and was playing Babylon (the ultimate builder's civ!) with culturally linked starts on. I got Persia beside me (you can see where this is going) and I was used to using 2 defensive units per city from civ 2 being enough so I was out building, out researching my opponents, up to musketmen but only having a couple with the rest as pikemen and spearmen since I didn't have that much income for upgraded.

Then out of the blue, Persia launches it's night of living Immortals on me. I upgrade to musketmen in the city outside the chokepoint next to Persia and my chokepoint city, so I'm expecting to hold my cities as his sporatic attack of Immortals die slowly trying to breakthrough the mountain chokepoint (remember civ 2 mentality).

Then I watch as Immortal after Immortal start pounding my cities. This was my first experience with SODs, and I was truly impressed. My capital was next to the chokepoint between Persia and me and I just watched as Immortal after Immortal attacked and broke through the chokepoint with little left of my army between them, my capitol and the rest of my empire.

I was in shock and awe at the mighty power of numbers (something which also works well in Civ 2, but isn't necessary so I didn't know about it). Well, after that episode, I learned the need for an army, a great army, and found that Persia became my favorite civ. It wasn't long before the switch to warmonger became complete.

And I never needed to restart again. Though from time to time, if the game for whatever reason didn't have an interest, I'd just stop.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

All good stories.

Is there anyone who loses their capital, but keeps on fighting?

[Thirgaral]

Is there anyone who loses their capital, but keeps on fighting?

I do...there´s always a little hope....

An ex. story...
I had moved all my troops down to the front and, stupid as I am, I´d left no defence in my capitol. I mean the front was 30-40 tiles away and I was winning!! But then, out of nowhere, comes an enemy spearman and captures my cap...

(I took it back the next turn, though the palace was ruined)

This was one of my very first games(if not THE very first) and I´ve learned my lesson, always defend your capitol...

[TheArsenal]

Is there anyone who loses their capital, but keeps on fighting?

This brings me to a question. I've never lost a capital in war. Nor have I moved my capital in times of peace. In terms of game play, what happens exactly? I assume one of the advisors pops up and gives you a choice as to where to place your new capital. I would guess Military.

[Wizard55]

I never say quit. I laugh in the face of Death

I will stick it out to the bitter end. Even in games I know I'm going to lose, I try to get higher up in the Histograph Race before
I die. I usually learn some new things while I'm trying to keep my head above water.

I fact in one Game ( I was playing the Vikings) Modern Age
The Ottomans were marching in on me destoying everything in site. I had 1 coastal city, Capitol and 2 other cities left out of 34 cities at one time.

Well I proceeded to build 2 settlers and set them off with 8 tanks
and 6 MI in 2 transports guarded by 2 Battleships.
(The Ottomans were on the same continent as me so they did not come with much of a navy)

We sailed to the next continent where there was some land open from a war going on between Russia and Rome.
Well we settled in just as Russia and Rome made peace. Russia had 2 cities left, so I declared war on Russia

By this time the Ottomans took my Capitol and last city.
I took Russia's last two cities. So now I have a new Capitol and 3 new cities. So I lasted until 2050 when Ottomans won by score, but I moved up from 5th place to 3rd. I had fun.

I've been playing Monarch level lately, 8 wins, 4 losses, no Ties.
I've recently moved to Emperor 2 wins, 7 losses. Sure is a different ballgame.

Thanks for listening

[badams52]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
This brings me to a question. I've never lost a capital in war. Nor have I moved my capital in times of peace. In terms of game play, what happens exactly? I assume one of the advisors pops up and gives you a choice as to where to place your new capital. I would guess Military.

Nope, it get's moved automatically as told by DaveMcW in his Free Palace Move thread.

[GarP2]

Well, I certainly agree with Catt and others about sticking it out and winning games that looked lost, and I usually do that and win, and that might even have happened in the game I described because I had such a superior lead in most other aspects, but there was something about losing combat after combat, turn after turn, with many 8-attack units against a few defense 2-defence units that soured it for me. So I guess it was a sub-case of "...when it quits being fun".

I remember hearing about Civ II that the AI made it harder for you if you were doing too well. Is it known for sure that there isnt something like that in Civ III?

...and when I see how long the game took at the end, I start to appreciate the statement by Yahweh Sabaoth that we are very, very sick men. Oh well.....

[OT] By the way - was it resolved whether Sepahi are 7 or 8 attack?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by GarP2
...and when I see how long the game took at the end, I start to appreciate the statement by Yahweh Sabaoth that we are very, very sick men. Oh well.....

This thread begs the question, "How often do you restart?" I play civ in the morning (and the evenings, when I have nothing better to do), and I've spent whole mornings starting and restarting and restarting and restarting, just to get a lush enough homeland without too severe competition... I'm an UP stickler, and that's often been the reason I quit... "Agh, some bastards on the other, undiscovered continent just build JS Bachs! Now, I could begin massing an overseas invasion force now... or I could just PLAY A WHOLE NEW GAME!"

It's perhaps not the best decision, but it's difficult to gauge how a given time-investment will pan out...

[Ubergeek]

Restarting is a separate issue -- I restart when I see nothing but tundra, mountains or plains in my starting city radius. Other than that, I give the starting position a go.

As for quitting, I will quit at three points:

1) When I discover I am isolated on an island with no other civs around and deep water to all sides -- I know that by the time I make contact I will be so far behind that I will be clawing my way out of the Ancient age when the rest of the world is cruising into the middle of the Industrial, and that I will have not the resources, luxuries or money to get back into competition. Who needs it?

2) When the AI whips the tar out of me in a sneak attack and looks poised to annihilate my empire. Normally I am MUCH too well defended for that to happen, but occasionally the Polite Chinese will launch 250 Riders into my territory without warning. At that point I concede defeat and make another start.

3) When, usually in the late game, I see that I am either in such a dominant position that I am a cinch to win the Space Race without serious competition, or that I'm so far behind that nothing I can do will save me. At that point I lose interest.

BTW, Yahweh, if I quit every time I didn't get Bach's I would NEVER finish a game. There's something about that Wonder -- even though I am often the first to get to Music Theory and start building Bach's as soon as I can in my best city, the AI ALWAYS beats me to it. I think I've actually managed to build it maybe twice in all the games I've played.

[Master Zen]

REAL MEN DON'T QUIT EVEN IF THEY START ON A 1-TILE TUNDRA ISLAND

Its so fun to turn the tables on destiny, get a crappy start and end up being the most powerful empire in the world...

I usually never get wiped out or get in a position of hopeless inferiorty. The only times I consistently lose is when I play Deity and get Greece as a close neighbor. They always kick my ass. Nothing I can do against the Hoplite (and they start with like 8 of them) at such early age.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I look forward to being a good enough player that starting in the middle of a bunch of lousy terrain surrounded by civs can be a "fun challenge" instead of just another headache.

[Ubergeek]

Originally posted by Master Zen
REAL MEN DON'T QUIT EVEN IF THEY START ON A 1-TILE TUNDRA ISLAND

I never claimed to be a real man

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Ubergeek


I never claimed to be a real man

To be honest I've never started on such a crappy start... but I know people who have