Emperor Level Frustration

PJNagrom · April 15, 2003, 12:38

Every game I play on Emperor level seems to start the same way. I play with 7-8 other civs and every game they gain a huge tech lead. No matter how good of a start I have (3 or 4 techs from goodie huts) by the time I meet another civ they already have a lead.

About the time I'm struggling to get writing or something of that level ALL the other civs race ahead to the next age. Every Civ shares with every other civ and I get left in the dust. Occasionally I'll catch up with a well timed war or Resource/Luxury trade only to fall way behind after a few more turns.

I have played through one game as Carthage and thanks to their UU I conquered my way to technology and eventually won a space race.

Does this sound familiar? Anyone have different experiences?

ToeTruck · April 15, 2003, 13:05

At Emperor or Deity, you will spend most of the early game behind in the tech race. That's just the way it is.

The best ways out of it are early war (Archer rush or quick Iron Working), *massive* expansion, or building the Great Library.

Each one has worked well for me...but you have to be single minded. No waffling. If you war, then do it hard. If you expand, don't bother building anything other than a granary or two. And if you build the Great Library, concentrate on getting a size-12 city as quickly as possible.

If all goes well, partway through the Middle Ages, you will have caught up tech-wise and can assert a lead entering the Industrial Age. That's been my experience.

Also, I've found that the greater the landmass (and the more connected it is), the quicker you fall behind. At Emperor and Deity, the AI trades tech and maps like crazy.

Try playing 80% water archipelago. That slows the AI down and makes for a very interesting game.

- TT

Spiffor · April 15, 2003, 13:10

I have just started an emperor game as the Spanish on a huge map, continent, 16 civs. We are at the age of mathematics and polytheism, and I am the second in tech.

The only way not to be too late in the tech race at the beginning of emperor level is to do tech whoring on a systematical basis, nearly every turn. If you are successful in tech-whoring you can both get science and make money (if it quite difficult to achieve though).

That, and you have to do some early conquest. It is impossible to build cities at the same rate as the AI, so war is the only option to have enough economic potential to overresearch your rivals.

Catt · April 15, 2003, 15:26

IMHO, one of the biggest stumbling blocks to moving up in difficulty levels is entirely mental -- it is quite easy to believe your position to be hopeless and the game to be lost. But if you play these games out (sometimes doing all you can to maintain that "never say die" attitude), you may very well soon come to the realization that the situation wasn't hopeless - not by a longshot - it was only your inexperience with the in-game effects of the challeneges of the difficulty level.

If you can grit your teeth and live with being behind (sometimes frighteningly behind) in techs in the early game, you just might find, after several games, that such a prospect is far less worrisome than it was the first time you were there -- i.e., you might find that it is par for the course at Emperor, and in a subsequent game where you find yourself in Spiffor's shoes, you might think "Wow, I'm crushing this game!"

Catt

ToeTruck · April 15, 2003, 15:47

I agree with Catt that the biggest stumbling block to success at Emperor and Deity is mental. You can't expect to kick butt every game out. Sometimes, just a single tech lead really is crushing your opponent.

Also, I've also found that the AI is its own worse enemy in the sense that the Industrial Age is chock full of massive wars. I can usually take advantage of that period of chaos to snag a few city sites and play my rivals against each other.

- TT

PJNagrom · April 16, 2003, 14:34

I agree with those last 2 posts. The more I go after the Emperor level the more I see that a tech lag can be overcome - most times. It's amazing how the right tech gain or the right war win can catch you up in a big hurry.

My Carthaginian game even came with a lousy starting point and I just kept grinding away. I was just wondering if that's the normal way it goes. I guess it is pretty common.

MattH · April 17, 2003, 18:44

Catt- you are so right. When I started playing, I'd meet the first civ and panic-build to 'catch up'. I finally realized that I was not behind, I was just nervous. Note To Self: Civ is just a game.

Theseus · April 19, 2003, 15:29

I find that more often than not, given a non-crap start, I do in fact out-REX, out-research, and out-produce the AI civs in the early game on Emperor.

The keys for me were learning how to optimize city placement (and timing... which ones in which order), how to build Settler / Worker Pumps, and how to maximize the use of my best tiles.

And, yeah, smart tech trading and an ultra-early war or two don't hurt either!!

Dominae · April 19, 2003, 15:52

If you're main goal is to keep up in research with the Emperor-level AI, might I suggest a Pangea game as Russia. Once the techs and contacts start pouring in, you should be able to use diplomacy to keep yourself rich and advanced. Just remember to check the Diplo screen almost every turn, as you'll surely miss some good opportunities otherwise

Dominae

ThePlagueRat · April 19, 2003, 16:57

How is it possible to do successful tech whoring on Emperor?
Won't those AI lunatics usually demand about 2 techs for giving 1 away?

Theseus · April 19, 2003, 17:19

Nope... you just have to know what tech values are. Get an early branch lead in just about anything, and you can pulll the reverse: get two of their starting techs for what you've researched.

Nor Me · April 19, 2003, 17:21

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
How is it possible to do successful tech whoring on Emperor?
Won't those AI lunatics usually demand about 2 techs for giving 1 away?

No. Actually the AI trades quite fairly (Must post links: AI - human trade revisited )

As long as you understand that sensibly the AIs value a tech less if a lot of other civs have it or even if they are about to finish researching it, you should be able to get good deals.

In fact, an AIs will often pay you more for a tech than it would cost them to research it.

Because it will take longer for you to start seriously outresearching the AI, tech whoring is much better at Emperor than lower levels.

When playing builder, I often encounter the reverse problem, the AI doesn't research fast enough in the Industrial age especially if there's a world war even on Emperor. My last game was OCC which I was trying to win by Spaceship before culture and I found this even then.

ThePlagueRat · April 19, 2003, 17:57

Hmm... Sounds strange, but I guess you are right.

Zachriel · April 19, 2003, 21:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
"never say die"
Catt

vmxa1 · April 19, 2003, 22:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
IMHO, one of the biggest stumbling blocks to moving up in difficulty levels is entirely mental -- it is quite easy to believe your position to be hopeless and the game to be lost.
Catt

This is true in many endevers. I remember first riding bikes in San Diego and going up this one nasty hill for about 1.4 miles at a very steep grade. I finally realized it was not my body that was having the trouble, it was my mind. Once my mind knew I could do it, it forvced my body to go over top no matter how many miles I had already gone.
Same in Emp/Deity, once you teach your mind you can do it, you will see the postions as markers not tombstones.

Cruddy · April 19, 2003, 23:36

And don't forget the goody huts - if you are behind on tech you are more likely to get a free tech. I always miss the Scouts when I play a non-Expansionist civ.

Demerzel · April 25, 2003, 20:19

i just use the standard emperor level tactic of getting to marketplaces ASAP and then cranking taxes to 90% and using all the incoming to buy up research off the AIs ( or stealing it ).

A war or two never hurts either and with judicious use of funds to get libraries & universities setup you can get a lead by the industrial era.

ToeTruck · April 25, 2003, 21:00

demerzel, does that really work?

I've considered that kind of strategy, but never actually put into practice. So...I gues that means you don't both with any of the Ancient Wonders, eh?

- TT

ThePlagueRat · April 26, 2003, 06:07

Sometimes it may work. This tactic depends on the AI, I guess.

I tried the tactic on a monarch-level game, with the BTM-mod.
(lower espionage costs, impoved AI, and some smaller modifications) But this setup was one of the most difficult I tried, and after som time the AI wouldn't even give one tech for 2000 gold. The lower espionage costs (about 500 per tech cheapest) didn't help much after some time when it's wasted 50% of the tries. So the tactic didn't work as well as I had planned on this setup.I had to do research myself or invade a much stronger civ.

AI disrespect for borders makes the stronger AI civ able to flank you on different sides, they can even invade another AI through your empire. The probability of you becoming the victim is pretty huge if you protest. So at the Emperor-level I guess you have the choice of going to war with stronger civs, or just lick their toes so they prosper?

ceroomaster · April 26, 2003, 10:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Demerzel
i just use the standard emperor level tactic of getting to marketplaces ASAP and then cranking taxes to 90% and using all the incoming to buy up research off the AIs ( or stealing it ).

A war or two never hurts either and with judicious use of funds to get libraries & universities setup you can get a lead by the industrial era.

Coupled with getting a few nations into going to war (bribe them with all the extra cash) with the one or two fastest tech developers (i.e. if they're at war they wont trade) and this stratergy works quite well IMO.

Demerzel · April 27, 2003, 07:16

yeah I've used it many a time to great success. The main thing is to try and keep relatively close tech wise whilst you build up your own research infrastructure in the middle ages.

As I said a war is often useful, making sure you pick on your weakest neighbour and use that to expand your own empire. Make sure you fight on just one front initially as your aim is to still trade techs with the others for a while.

Plus I should mention if you start nearby another AI then its often worth sacrifing a worker/settler to get a few extra attack units out there to smack down that AI. If you can cripple it quick enough then you get a few free techs/cities whilst ensuring there is plenty of room to expand.

If you do it right, you should be 1st to steam power ( or a very close 2nd ) and have a pretty large empire with a couple of hundred gold surplus a turn.