Earliest writing discovered in China

[Oerdin]

From the BBC This article seemed topical considering the recent looting of the Baghdad museum.

Signs carved into 8,600-year-old tortoise shells found in China may be the earliest written words, say archaeologists.

The symbols were written down in the late Stone Age, or Neolithic Age.

They predate the earliest recorded writings from Mesopotamia - in what is now Iraq - by more than 2,000 years.

The archaeologists say they bear similarities to written characters used thousands of years later during the Shang dynasty, which lasted from 1700-1100 BC.

But the discovery has already generated controversy, with one leading researcher in the field branding it "an anomaly".

The archaeologists have identified 11 separate symbols inscribed on the tortoise shells.

The shells were found buried with human remains in 24 Neolithic graves unearthed at Jiahu in Henan province, western China.

The site has been radiocarbon dated to between 6,600 and 6,200 BC.

The research was carried out by Dr Garman Harbottle, of the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York and a team of archaeologists at the University of Science and Technology of China in Anhui province.

"What [the markings] appear to show are meaningful signs that have a correspondence with ancient Chinese writing," said Dr Harbottle.

The Neolithic markings include symbols that resemble the characters for "eye" and "window" and the numerals eight and 20 in the Shang script.

"If you pick up a bottle with a skull and crossbones on it, you know instantly that it's poison without the word being spelt out. We're used to signs that convey concepts and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we're seeing here," Dr Harbottle added.

However, Professor David Keightley of the University of California, Berkeley, urged caution, particularly over the proposed link to the much later Shang script.

"There is a gap of about 5,000 years [between them]. It seems astonishing that they would be connected," said Professor Keightley.

He added that the link had to be proved more thoroughly.

But Dr Harbottle points to the persistence of sign use at different sites along the Yellow River throughout the Neolithic and up to the Shang period, when a complex writing system appears.

He emphasised that he was not suggesting the Neolithic symbols had the same meanings as Shang characters they resembled.

Professor Keightley added: "It's a puzzle and an anomaly; [the symbols] are remarkably early. We can't call it writing until we have more evidence."

Shaman rituals

He noted that there were signs the Neolithic culture at Jiahu may not have been complex enough to require a writing system.

But Professor Keightley did say that the signs appeared to be highly "schematised" or stylised. This is a feature of Chinese written characters.

Aggregations of small pebbles were found close to several of the tortoise shells.

The Jiahu researchers propose that the shells once contained the pebbles and were used as musical rattles in shamanistic rituals.

In one grave, eight sets of tortoise shells were placed above the skeletal remains of a man whose head was missing.

The shells come from graves where, in 1999, the researchers unearthed ancient bone flutes.

These flutes are the earliest musical instruments known to date.

The research is published in the journal Antiquity.

[Spiffor]

Very interesting. ANd very good news

[Oerdin]

At least we're gaining a few new incites from our history and not just losing relics.

[Spiffor]

Yep That sure givves some hopes for the future. There are still many historical mysteries to uncover.

[Urban Ranger]

Good stuff.

[Berzerker]

A book written shortly after 1900 showed links between Sumerian and Chinese picture writing. Can't remember the name of it though...

[Lancer]

Well, there ya go.

[Chemical Ollie]

Apparantly, Emperor Chin missed some tortoise shells when he burned all books so that history would begin with him.

[DRoseDARs]

If this turns out to be true, good for the Chinese

[Traianvs]

Well until it's been proven that it is writing and not ritual symbols or something (because: perhaps we see these tablets as writing, but the neolithic man then may not have used it for writing as we do now!!!) a remark:

If this is writing, then why did they need it? the Earliest known writing in Mesopotamia (but also in Kreta, and every other place) was used for administration, to count how many pots were produced this month or similar things, so it suggests a fairly advanced community that cooperates...

If this Chinese writing is also used for administration, the neolithic man at that time must have been quite organized, and it might explain their society a lot different than we see it now! So our views on those people might change quite drastically...

But of course that's up to the archaeologists to find out. Plus, if this was writing similar to the Shang writing, what caused it to vanish all that time, and then pop up again after 5000 years? That's a long time for a writing to be out of use, and I reckon there would be nobody old enough to remember that writing after so many years . Interesting stuff!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Trajanus
Well until it's been proven that it is writing and not ritual symbols or something

If these symbols have meanings, would that be considered as writing? More generally, what is the accepted definition of writing?

[Solly]

That seems like drawing to me.

[Boris Godunov]

Lies. We all know the world was made 6,000 years ago!

[Traianvs]

I don't know the definition of writing, but.... Writing is a means of communication, you want to give information to another person and instead of memorizing everything and telling the information orally, you do it the easy way, by writing it down


For example, the prehistoric drawings in caves aren't writing, or shaman symbols aren't writing either, sure they have a meaning, but only to represent an idea or a belief (like a cross on a wall might indicate that this is a holy place or something), but not to actually give precise information on how many pots you sold last month ). Simple!

When several symbols are used in a sequence, and they can be used in other sequences, you can say it is writing, if the symbols always appear inthe same order or in the samecontext, I don't think it is writing.

We don't write with crosses, circles or smileys, because they can't give information on what we are specifically saying!

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


If these symbols have meanings, would that be considered as writing? More generally, what is the accepted definition of writing?

Direct representation of spoken language - basically, a system that is as open-ended as speech and equally able to directly transcribe granary accounts, epic poetry, or technical writing. Basically the definition is - if you can write anything you speak and if there's a close correspondence between what you speak and what you write, then what you have is writing.

Egyptian hieroglyphics and Chinese oracle-bone carvings are considered to be writing. Incan knotted strings and Picasso paintings are not.

[Urban Ranger]

Okay, that's for a mature system though. If a system has just started, it would have only a few symbols.

[JCG]

Originally posted by ranskaldan Incan knotted strings

Funny, I've heard from a few people that have studied them that the complexity achieved by those strings actually does constitute an organized form of direct representation & communication of numbers/quantities/etc.. But nevermind.

Good to know that new discoveries are still being made.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by JCG


Funny, I've heard from a few people that have studied them that the complexity achieved by those strings actually does constitute an organized form of direct representation & communication of numbers/quantities/etc.. But nevermind.

Good to know that new discoveries are still being made.

Well, the genius of the Incan knotting system is quite amazing - considering that it kept together a pre-literate empire spanning an enormous mountainous area. But then, by definition, it's an accounting system, not a writing system, in that it doesn't record the Quechua language (at least not fully, afaik.)

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Okay, that's for a mature system though. If a system has just started, it would have only a few symbols.

Well, the systems being used by the Sumerians, Egyptians, Shang and Harappans were certainly at that level of maturity to qualify as "writing".

[Seeker]

Personally, I think that if a culture stores stuff in ceramics then they have a need for writing, if only to keep track of what all you have, especially if it is a large village.

And the chinese have had ceramics, villages, and agriculture for a long, long time before the Shang in 1100 BC. This doesn't surprise me very much, in my opinion there has always been a strange 'gap' at the beginning of chinese history when the other river valley civs were around for longer (Sumer, Mohenjo Daro).

A really interesting case of writing or pictures is Catal Huyuk in Anatolia. About 6 000 BC the town was devasted by an earthquake, and this seems to be depicted in a sort of wall mural.

[Ramo]

Very intriguing.

[Ecthy]

bumping oldest not archived thread

these news are amazing

I mean,

[Q Classic]

further proof that only asians really have culture.

[Solly]

Yeah Eccy..

[Brundlefly]

That's not all that the Chinese may have discovered first.

There was a story a while back that wreckage of Chinese ships predating Columbus had been found on West Coast of U.S.

So instead of America celebrating Columbus Day, maybe we should be celebrating....General Tso's Day?

[FrustratedPoet]

Oldest known thread discovered by silly Eastie, Scientists confounded.

[Ecthy]

maybe they had space travel first

[Ecthy]

FP, what a scientific wonder

have you got more sources for that novelty?

[Q Classic]

So instead of America celebrating Columbus Day, maybe we should be celebrating....General Tso's Day?

i'd rather be eating his chicken.

[Drake Tungsten]

further proof that only asians really have culture.

No, this is just further proof that only the Chinese have culture. Other Asians just conveniently "borrowed" it.

As for the symbols, it's pretty much impossible to determine whether they're writing or not. Due to the nature of Chinese characters, it's hard to know whether these are characters used in writing or just the ideographic symbols that the characters later developed from. Still very interesting, though.

[Skanky Burns]

Thought this thread was familiar.