The Pope and CNN

[Ben Kenobi]

Seventh Day Adventist.

What is this about the state of the dead? Do you then believe that all Christians who die, are currently in heaven?

[Jon Miller]

no

we beleive that they don't exist (or something along those lines)

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

"The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people."

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/index.html

Unconscious is somewhat different from not existing at all. No difference here from other Christian denominations.

[Jon Miller]

ah, I guess oyu are right

I thought some thought you were in heaven or something

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I guess I consider the state nonexistence

so that is my belief more than an SDA one

hmm, there is the Sabbath issue

(I know in many things we are similiar to other denominations)

I don't know much about minenites (what youa re?) (there are many a fair ways back in my family tree), what differences are their between your denomination and SDAs?

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

Jon Miller:

You are right, some do consider people to go immediately to heaven, although most consider it a state of unconsciousness.

I don't know much about minenites (what youa re?) (there are many a fair ways back in my family tree), what differences are their between your denomination and SDAs?

Evangelical Mennonite.

Mennonites are anabaptist pacifists.

Anabaptist means that we do not baptise infants, unlike the other protestant denominations, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.

We are exactly the same as Baptists except for the pacifism aspect, in that members cannot do combat service.

The Evangelical qualification is a subsection of Mennonites. There are Conservative Mennonites, and Evangelicals. Conservative Mennonites are very close to the Amish, without the technology prohibitions.

Evangelical signifies a commitment to bible-reading and study, so that all members are able to share their faith with others. We're also big on missions.

As for the SDA's in particular, you have dietary restrictions and the Sabbath issue that set you apart from the rest of Christians.

[Jon Miller]

we use to be very pacifist

like most were COs during WW2

I think the NA churcha s a whole has grown less pacifist in the last 20 years though

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I thoguht I remember getting in argmuents with people mroe than just diet restrictions and the Sabbath would suggest

I am not sure what denomiatinos they were, nor what the arguments would ahve been about (it hs beena while)

Jon miller

[Ben Kenobi]

I thoguht I remember getting in argmuents with people mroe than just diet restrictions and the Sabbath would suggest.

I think that you are tired. Check back when you get some decent rest, and you might remember more.

(can't sleep right now, myself.)

It's hard to scout the arguments without knowing the identity of the other denominations.

[Jon Miller]

I am tired

but I can't sleep

I drank coffee at midnight, and usually it puts me to sleep

but this time it kept me up

and I ahve a etst tomorrow (And would like to get an assignbment in)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

a lot of them had to do wtih interpretation of the Bible I believe

and it might not have been denomination differences that much (a lto of members don't actually know that much of what there denomination beleives, I knwo I have my own twist on SDA beleifs)

as I think I ahve said, I ahve bveen to a few lutheran sevices and found them very weird

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm starting to fade too. Boris would rip the grammar of my sentences to shreds.

Biblical interpretation is always a fertile ground for disagreement, most of the doctrinal differences emerge from different interpretations, symbolic vs. literal and so on.

as I think I ahve said, I ahve bveen to a few lutheran sevices and found them very weird.

Tradition is another thing entirely. I don't know much about Seventh Day Adventists, particularly with regards to tradition.

How did you find the Lutheran services strange?

[Jon Miller]

the cross thing

ahving the Lords Prayer said

how the guy prayed facing the other way

all the congregational response

the style of the sermons (thety don't call them sermons I think)

less hymms song by the congrgation, more by the choir

most SDA churchs seem to have a very different style than the Lutheran Church I Went to a couple times

of course, that church I went to was a college church, so it might have been atypical

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

if there is very little difference in Doctrine, I dont' see denomination matters much

it has always seemed to me that doctrine was different, but I could be wrong

I mean the Sabbath issue is important, but is not that huge of difference

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

"the cross thing"
Don't understand what you mean here. Crossing across the chest like Catholics do, when the priest says, Father, Son, Holy Spirit?

"having the Lords Prayer said."

Less emphasis in my church than the Lutherans, although we do say it during the service.

"how the guy prayed facing the other way."

Okay, I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about the priest praying towards the congregation or away from the congregation or something else entirely?

My church prays towards the congregation.

"all the congregational response"

My sympathies to you. Very similar to a Catholic mass in this regard, everybody knows what to say, and they are quick. Mennonites generally don't have responses from the congregation, and so I have had to learn to keep up.

"the style of the sermons"

They are homilies, similar to the Catholic and Anglican services. Baptists and Mennonites tend to have long sermons, around 30 mins or so, as compared to this style.

"less hymms song by the congrgation, more by the choir"

Mennonites would be closer to you it seems than the Lutherans. We only have one or two hymns sung by the choir in isolation.

[Jon Miller]

no

what I was saying was how the Lutherans were, not me

we have almost no congragational response (when I went to church regularly, maybe once a year or so)

all our hymms are by the congregation, none by the choir (most the time there is no choir)

SDAs tend towards longer sermons (occasionally going well over 30 minutes)

the cross thing was a reference to the Lutherans having a corss being brought up

we moistly don't say the Lord's Prayer at all (I might not here it in a year (back when I went to church every week))

Jon Miller

[Ben Kenobi]

the cross thing was a reference to the Lutherans having a corss being brought up.

Thank you.

If you want a debate, how do you interpret Colossians
2:13-17?

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2] God made you[3] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[4]

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

[TheStinger]

To Ned- I disagree with the pope on most things and i disagree with him on the war. BUT I wouldn't have a go at him for it. He is a religious leader and they are supposed to be for peace and love and all that.

On the general catholic debate- They are an arrogant church, they think they have the one truth and system. To them catholic tradition is as impotrant as whats in the bible so it does not surprise me that they say a catholic can't attend other services.

[Ned]

Originally posted by TheStinger
To Ned- I disagree with the pope on most things and i disagree with him on the war. BUT I wouldn't have a go at him for it. He is a religious leader and they are supposed to be for peace and love and all that.

On the general catholic debate- They are an arrogant church, they think they have the one truth and system. To them catholic tradition is as impotrant as whats in the bible so it does not surprise me that they say a catholic can't attend other services.

Stinger, on further thought, I think churches increasingly want to stay out of politics. Opining on war, one war or the other, gets religion too much involved. A wish for a peaceful resolution is acceptable. Declaring the war to be unjust is unacceptable. It goes to far into the political.

[Ben Kenobi]

Declaring the war to be unjust is unacceptable. It goes to far into the political.

It is difficult for the Pope to come out against the war without references to why the war is unjust. Why else bother?

My denomination on the other hand does not need to specify, and can simply pray for the war to end.

I don't see the Pope's response as political, so much as directed at other Catholics.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Dr. Strangelove:

Transubstantiation is the only reason I cannot take the bread and wine at a Catholic mass. That is why I am curious as to the joining of both traditions, since I see no way to accomodate the Catholic rites, with Protestants. I suppose they could accept the Protestant rites, since there is nothing barring a Catholic from accepting communion within a Protestant church.

The Protestant Episcopal Church also has transubstantiation as a basic doctrine, though during services it skirts the issue by having the priest bless the bread and wine as if he were remembering Christ's actions during the Last Supper.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
the cross thing

ahving the Lords Prayer said

how the guy prayed facing the other way

all the congregational response

the style of the sermons (thety don't call them sermons I think)

less hymms song by the congrgation, more by the choir

most SDA churchs seem to have a very different style than the Lutheran Church I Went to a couple times

of course, that church I went to was a college church, so it might have been atypical

Jon Miller

Ohhhhhh, Episcopalian services would really trip you out! Services follow a basic pattern, with each part of the service having a variety of forms to choose from in order to provide for variety throughout the year. The cross is brought in during the opening hymn. A collect prayer is said, than a Psalm, which is said responsively. After the Psalm there are readings: one Old Testament, one Gospel and one Epistle (Acts or Paul's letters). Another hymn may be sung between the readings. After the readings comes the sermon, then the peace, then the offering. During the offering a hymn is sung, and the Eucharistic service begins with the prayers of the people, the confession and then the eucharistic prayers themselves. During this section the Lord's Prayer and the Nicene creed will be said, though at some times of the year an alternate form may be used which includes the Apostle's creed instead. The prayers of the people and the Eucharistic prayers are the longest segments of the service and there are three different basic forms of each. After the Eucharist there is a final closing blessing and the priest, choir and cross march out.

[Bereta_Eder]

God forgives you all.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Protestant Episcopal Church also has transubstantiation as a basic doctrine,

Thanks Dr. Strangelove. My mom used to take me to Anglican church growing up, and they never mentioned this.

Your traditions are very similar to the Catholic ones.

Interesting that Catholic/Lutheran/Episcopal/Anglican services would be so similar.

[Alexander's Horse]

Leave the Pope alone. He's a frail old man trapped in the body of a frail old man.

[Heresson]

I have no idea why the pope was against the war.

but I think he was concerned with the image of the church in the middle east. And didn't want to do anything to damage the church image even if it meant helping people of another religion.

You are looking at it in your, egoistical view. As I wrote, pope can not support ANY war, no matter how just would it be.

Huh? I don't understand how any of this relates to the question of whether it is permissable for a Roman Catholic to break bread with his protestant brethren and still be considered a good Roman Catholic. The policy stated by the Pope, if applied strictly, implies that if a Roman Catholic is stuck in some town where there are no Catholic churches and feels the need to attend church he can't fulfill this need in a protestant church. It also means that he could not accept an invitation to attend a protestant friend's baptism, marriage or funeral if the ceremony were to be incorporated into a regular church service. See, this policy means that can't ask a Catholic to be my child's godparent, or to be my best man, or even the pallbearer at a family member's funeral unless I change the venue of the service. I can ask a Methodist, a Baptist, a Lutheran, or even a Pentecostal without causing them distress, but if I were to ask a Roman Catholic to do any of these things then I'm asking him to be disobedient to his faith.

It's not quite truth, otherwise pope wouldn't go to other monotheistic temples; it's about participating in allien religious ceremonies when You can participate in the real, catholic, ones.

My graduate school advisor was a Roman Catholic. When he married a Baptist woman he tried to arrange for the marriage service to be a joint Catholic-Baptist one. After a great deal of effort he managed to get it all arranged, than at the last minute the priest was denied permission to participate. The Roman catholic Church lost a member that day.

So He didn't treat his religion enough seriously if He quitted it for such thing. But interdenominational marriages are tolerated, and should be, as long as the children will be brought up on catholic church. This behaviour is not common with official attitude of the church.