Are we really liberators? US Troops break up Saddam birthday party in Tikrit. - Page 2

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:01

This is like arguing with a brick wall... what is your point Tass? The Nazi Party was outlawed from holding meetings and rallies in Germany, as should the Baath Party in Iraq.

You are completely delusional and quite ignorant.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:03

Quote:

To suggest anything else is irresponsible.

Correct, however this will only make the situation more UNSTABLE. Because then the Iraqis will begin to hate us because "They wont even allow a birthday party!!! And they claim they are not invaders......".

We need to grant them FREEDOMS first, not just say "Well, you lived under a dictatorship for so many years......Whats a few more months?". Thats irresponsible.

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We obviously can.

Yes, but its not moral and simply adds evidence to the fact that we are not restoring iraqi freedoms.

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Tass, you have problems.

Oh fez, I thought you got over your ad hominem problems......Guess not.

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is under martial law for the time being as there is still hostilities.

So does that properly justify giving freedom of speech only to select Iraqis?

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:03

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So does that properly justify giving freedom of speech only to select Iraqis?

Martial Law = Means all possible security threats must be kept under control.

This birthday party qualifies as one.

Your arrogance is showing.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
This is like arguing with a brick wall... what is your point Tass? The Nazi Party was outlawed from holding meetings and rallies in Germany, as should the Baath Party in Iraq.

My point is that it shouldn't be, because its FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

Trust me Fez, I know much more than you or any Americans do about how important Freedom of Expression really is. You see, because for a lot of my life, I didn't have it.....Only PRO Soviet demonstrations, no ANTI soviet dissident......etc etc. Just like what America is doing to Iraq

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You are completely delusional and quite ignorant.

Ad Hominem debate fallacy.......again and again and again

Lets start the "Fez Ad Hominem Count". So far it stands at

FOUR. I wonder if it'll go any higher?

Yep....Five.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez

Martial Law = Means all possible security threats must be kept under control.

This birthday party qualifies as one.

Your arrogance is showing.

How is celebrating a birthday party a secuirty threat? Now your just picking and choosing threats in order to try to make it look like "They love us! They really do!"

Just like Nazi Germany, Communist China, the Soviet Union..........

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:06

Tass: Wrong again. The area under question, Iraq, is under martial law. No freedom of expression for the time being until there is an adequate police system set up to maintain security.

You are claiming my argument is full of fallacies? You better look at your own debating style.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
Tass: Wrong again. The area under question, Iraq, is under martial law. No freedom of expression for the time being until there is an adequate police system set up to maintain security.

Ok, then we should surpress ALL celebrations. Not just ones we dont like

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You are claiming my argument is full of fallacies? You better look at your own debating style.

Oh come now Fez.....This, coming from you, sounds quite silly

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:08

Also, what about the destruction of property that belongs to the Iraqi people?

We should send them and their stuff back to their homes, not destroy it Fez

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:09

There are somes the US can't surpress that are far too large and would turn into a blood bath. But one glorifying a war criminal is not permitable who was the leader previously.

Again your argument is full of holes and fallacies.

DanS · April 28, 2003, 18:09

From the ridiculous to the sublime.

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Also, what about the destruction of property that belongs to the Iraqi people?

We should send them and their stuff back to their homes, not destroy it Fez

Again another slanderous comment made against the United States.

And you are misquotating and misstating as usual.

You now qualify as the most annoying pest on this forum.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
There are somes the US can't surpress that are far too large and would turn into a blood bath. But one glorifying a war criminal is not permitable who was the leader previously.

I won't talk about your support of dictators, but.....

Again, WHY NOT? It poses NO SECUIRTY THREAT, does not merit DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY, and simply showed Iraqis exercising new freedoms.....If we are to win over their hearts, we could start by not hacking out pictures they make of Saddam

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:12

My support of dictators? You obviously have a love for Saddam Hussein...

Again Tass, it was the glorification of a former leader and I believe you are in no position whether to state if it doesn't pose a security threat. It does.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:12

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Originally posted by Fez
And you are misquotating and misstating as usual.

Heres the full article, Fez. I'll bold what I'm talking about.

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.S. Troops Spoil Saddam's Hometown Birthday Party
Mon Apr 28, 1:37 PM ET Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!

By Saul Hudson

TIKRIT, Iraq (Reuters) - It was not enough to bomb his palaces, smash up his statues and kick him out of power. U.S. troops on Monday also ruined Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s hometown birthday party.

Reuters Photo

No Birthday Celebrations For Saddam
(Reuters Video)

Latest news:
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Special Coverage

In Tikrit, dozens of die-hard loyalists danced and sang of their passion for Saddam, parading a homemade cake and oil painting of the former leader through their neighborhood backstreets.

Young girls in bright red dresses jumped on the spot holding up portraits of him and chanted: "We will sacrifice our souls and blood for Saddam Hussein."

But the small-scale street parties for Saddam, born 66 years ago just outside the town, were short-lived -- broken up by U.S. Bradley fighting vehicles and soldiers patrolling with M-16 rifles.

"We only want to celebrate peacefully,"" primary school teacher Sabahan Harez, 50, said. "Where is the freedom of expression the Americans boast so much about."

With helicopters circling low overhead, troops searched vehicles at checkpoints of barbed wire and tanks throughout the town, backing up traffic in lines of up to 100 vehicles.

One soldier hacked the face out of a Saddam mosaic portrait with a pick axe, while others raced around the town of neat palm tree-lined roads, whitewashing from walls the "Saddam Lives" and "Bush is a Dog" graffiti .

One Iraqi marked Saddam's birthday face down in the dust at a checkpoint with his hands cuffed behind his back and his suitcase -- stuffed with dollar bills -- on the ground behind the open boot of his BMW car. "We are more vigilant, more alert because it's his birthday," Staff Sgt. Jesse Barr said, adding that residents had shot at U.S. troops and fired mortars toward them the night before.

BIRTHDAY PARADE

A typical birthday celebration in the past in Tikrit, 100 miles north of Baghdad, attracted tens of thousands of visitors who were feted with cake, juice and Saddam songs before paying homage to him by passing through a parade ground.

This year, a few U.S. tanks and soldiers guarded the desolate stadium.

In many provincial towns, traffic generally flows freely with few security checkpoints and most Iraqis delight in ripping up posters of their leader of the last 25 years.

But in Tikrit, residents say they adore their benefactor, grateful for the town's clean, well-paved roads, electricity and free schools.

They did not join the soldiers in tearing down Saddam's cult-like portraits which until the war adorned every lamppost along town's main avenue.

Asked Saddam's whereabouts, the common refrain in Tikrit was "in the people's hearts."

Most believe he is alive, hiding somewhere inside Iraq (news - web sites) and hope he returns to power one day and to his hometown palace where statues of him on horseback brandishing a sword still top the ornate entrance gates.

"We need Saddam back," Fidah Mahmoud, a 49-year-old mother, said. "Only Saddam can control the Iraqi people and give us security."

Tikrit was the last major town American troops took over in their invasion of Iraq, but there was no major last stand from his loyalists.

Some residents said Saddam's iron rule had only taught the people to make a show of loving him, even if they did not feel it.

"The truth is people hate him. I do," Ali Abdullah, 50, a wheat farmer, said. "I care more about this old shoe here with the hole in it more than I do about Saddam."

I'm hardly misquoting it, Fez

You just want to pretend I am. If you wish, I can take another picture....

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:13

A portrait does not equal a prized possession.. they are probably hundreds and thousands of them floating around. I would of took the honors in destroying the portrait myself.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
My support of dictators? You obviously have a love for Saddam Hussein...

I have a love for Freedom of Speech, something a lot of people take for granted.

[QUOTE] Again Tass, it was the glorification of a former leader [/QOUTE]

Ok..We here in America can glorify former leaders of any country.

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and I believe you are in no position whether to state if it doesn't pose a security threat. It does.

HOW?! The Iraqis werent killing or injuring anybody.......They are holding a CELEBRATION. Thats hardly a threat, Fez.

And what makes you think you are in any way more qualified than I am?

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
A portrait does not equal a prized possession.. they are probably hundreds and thousands of them floating around. I would of took the honors in destroying the portrait myself.

But it does belong to the Iraqis, NOT us. If the soldier who hacked it out OWNED it, then he would have the right. However, if I were to go to my next door neighbors house and destroy one of their pictures i thought was "anti-american", I would be arrseted for destruction of property

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:16

OMG this is like arguing with my brother...

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HOW?! The Iraqis werent killing or injuring anybody.......They are holding a CELEBRATION. Thats hardly a threat, Fez.

It does pose a threat as the situation could of been easily exploited by any gunman in the area. If nothing was done to dispersed the crowd, it would of turned a lot uglier.

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But it does belong to the Iraqis, NOT us.

Doesn't matter.

I would of destroyed as many Saddam portraits as I could as the area was under martial law. De-Baathification must occur.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:18

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It does pose a threat as the situation could of been easily exploited by any gunman in the area.

So could pro-american demonstrations. Lets get rid of them, too

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Doesn't matter.

Go to a random person house and destroy a random picture in their house.

Come back and tell me what happens

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:19

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Originally posted by Fez
De-Baathification must occur.

Thats up for the Iraqis to decide, because only an occupying power would do such a thing.

If the Iraqis pass laws, then they should do it. But if WE say so......thats not a very good reason

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:19

Tass, you know that is a load of nonsense. Pro-American demonstrations? Those would happen in more secure areas, not in Tikrit which is the birthlplace of Saddam and his strong hold.

You are not gonna win this pal.

Japher · April 28, 2003, 18:19

We've got a spitting match here!!!

Good Argument:
IMO after all the problems in Bagdad due to large parties that turned into riots that then lead to Iraq hatred of the US because everything was getting trashed - breaking up the party was a good idea. Good preventative measueres.

Bad Argument:
I also love freedom of speech, but they are not yet a part of the US

... So, what freedom of speech? They are under martial law!

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:20

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Originally posted by Tassadar5000

Thats up for the Iraqis to decide, because only an occupying power would do such a thing.

Wrong again. It must occur.

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If the Iraqis pass laws, then they should do it. But if WE say so......thats not a very good reason

It doesn't matter what other nonsense is out there.. the Baath Party in Iraq is like the Nazi Party in Germany after WWII. It had to be eliminated.

Dis · April 28, 2003, 18:21

The U.S. is so bad. I am ashamed of the country I live in. hypocrites.

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:21

[]QUOTE] Those would happen in more secure areas, not in Tikrit which is the birthlplace of Saddam and his strong hold [/QUOTE]

Ah, so Baghdad is more secure than Tikrit?

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So, what freedom of speech?

I dunno, the freedom of speech we PROMISED them?

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:22

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Originally posted by Fez

Wrong again. It must occur.

Apparently Bush disagrees with you, as hes stated ITS UP TO THE IRAQIS TO CHOOSE LEADERSHIP

Whether is be Baath or Nazi or whatever......

It's up to them as a newly liberated country

Giancarlo · April 28, 2003, 18:24

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Ah, so Baghdad is more secure than Tikrit?

Yes. There are more troops in Baghdad.

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Apparently Bush disagrees with you, as hes stated ITS UP TO THE IRAQIS TO CHOOSE LEADERSHIP Whether is be Baath or Nazi or whatever......

George W. Bush doesn't disagree with me you blind dingbat. What he said was that the old leadership is gone with its baath party elements... so that means it is GONE!

You are delusional man.. you wanna give power back to the people the US was with war at?

Japher · April 28, 2003, 18:24

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I dunno, the freedom of speech we PROMISED them?

Very cute Tass. Surely you don't wrestle the gun out of your enemies arms, shoot 'em in the knees, then give them back there gun!

Freedoms will be had, but all in do time. Else... Ivory Coast Part Two

Nubclear · April 28, 2003, 18:25

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Yes. There are more troops in Baghdad.

And more Iraqis there, too

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you wanna give power back to the people the US was with war at?

AH HA!!!

So the US was at war with the PEOPLE of Iraq? That would mean the US came as conquerors, because if they were at war with only the GOVERNMENT, then that would be justified in calling themselves liberators

Boris Godunov · April 28, 2003, 18:26

Acknowledging Freedom of Expression comes secondary to preserving public order in Iraq right now, since the fighting isn't over, the whereabouts of Hussein are unknown and there is near-anarchy. Until the infrastructure is there to allow such expression without the risk of violence, I think it's understandable to break up such demonstrations (as peacefully as possible).