Could europe defend itself from a conventional Russian ground assault? 2.0

Tattila the Hun · April 29, 2003, 02:34

Allright, this might have actually been an interesting topic, had it not been flooded with spam and... "trolls" previously.

Now, strategically and tactically speaking, takin to account armament, central command structure (the lack of), training and terrain, and the wild card of tact. nukes and the political willingness to use them, how would Europe fare against determined attack by the Russian Red Army?

One thing speaking against us europians is the lack of integration and differences between equipment, eg. not one big army but many smaller ones.

Try to make on-topic posts, will you.

Skanky Burns · April 29, 2003, 02:51

Even excluding any American influence in such a war, other European powers posess nuclear capability, and would more than likely use them if nuclear weapons were used against them.

DinoDoc · April 29, 2003, 02:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
how would Europe fare against determined attack by the Russian Red Army?

The Russian Army can barely hold thier own rebellious provinces together. How is it to mount a determined attack on Europe?

Victor Galis · April 29, 2003, 03:01

The real question is how much would the Russian army soldiers sell their equipment to tourists for? I hear the fur hats used to go for 50DM in East Berlin.

Dis · April 29, 2003, 03:13

didn't Russia struggle with one of their former republics recently? They had tanks in cities, but terrorists thwarted them.

The answer is yes

Serb · April 29, 2003, 04:04

No one can defend itself from a conventional Russian ground assault.

BEWARE!!! RUSSIANS ARE COMING!!!

Serb · April 29, 2003, 04:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
Now, strategically and tactically speaking, takin to account armament, central command structure (the lack of), training and terrain, and the wild card of tact. nukes and the political willingness to use them, how would Europe fare against determined attack by the Russian Red Army?

Well, strategically and tactically speaking...this poll is silly at best. Why in the hell Russia should attack Europe? We see Europe as our ally in future war versus USA.

When Yanks will piss-off you enough, you'll join our camp.

Quote:

Try to make on-topic posts, will you.

Ok. Back to topic...
this poll is racist. What the hell do you think I should answer? "We would be slaughtered" But I am Russian and I believe that we wouldn't. Your poll offers no choice for Russian posters who belive that Russia will win.

Have a nice day

Serb · April 29, 2003, 04:17

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The Russian Army can barely hold thier own rebellious provinces together.

Blah...blah...blah...

I don't notice a single rebellious province of Russia which is independent country now and which Russians were unable to hold.

You better watch how your troops holds Afghanistan or how they will hold Iraq in near future.

DinoDoc · April 29, 2003, 04:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb
I don't notice a single rebellious province of Russia which is independent country now and which Russians were unable to hold.

Put down that rebellion in Chechnya yet.

Serb · April 29, 2003, 04:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
didn't Russia struggle with one of their former republics recently?

NO.
Chechnya never was the Republic of Soviet Union and it never was FORMER republic of Russia.
I think you have no idea about this issue as well as absolute majority of Americans.

Quote:

They had tanks in cities, but terrorists thwarted them.

Yeah right.

It was divine intervention that saved Russians and killed/captured/forced those terrorists to surrender and capitulate.

VJ · April 29, 2003, 04:25

'We'? Who 'we'?

Theoretically, Europe would be crushed.
In reality, Russia would be crushed.

DinoDoc · April 29, 2003, 04:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuomerehu
In reality, Russia would be crushed.

I'm taking bets on how. My bet is on the Chinese army saying hi to Serb when they capture his hometown while the bulk of the Russian army is in Europe.

Harovan · April 29, 2003, 04:29

Oh yea, this thread was kind of yelling "Seeeeeeerb!"

Personally I think, that continental European armies combined can stand well against a hypothetical ground assault from Russia. That is basically all they can, with all their heavy equipment, large numbers of battle tanks and anti tank forces, and that is all they were designed for. Their ability to project their considerable ground force may be missing, but for fighting on own soil one doesn't need aircraft carriers, transport planes, long range bombers, light transportable armor, and alike. A larger number of precision weapons would be an asset, though.

But as was mentioned, Russia has enough problems of its own and doesn't really need to take the risk of such a hazardous move. As it stands, an American invasion is much more likely than a Russian one.

Serb · April 29, 2003, 04:32

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Put down that rebellion in Chechnya yet.

What rebellion?
Anti-terrorist campaign was finished two years ago. Last two years there was police/special services operations only. Several months ago regular army started to withdraw from Chechnya. March 23 there was referendum there was 3 questions:
1) Do you accept new constiution of Chechen Republic (First paragraph of this constitution says that Cechen Republic is part of Russian Federation).
2) Do you accept new law about elections of president of Chechen Republic?
3) Do you accept new law about elections of parliament of Chechen Republic?
About 96% of voters answered YES to all three questions. Observers from dozens of foreign countries confirmed that it was absolutely fair referendum.

What kind of rebellion are you talking about?
Currently republic is under reconstruction and soon there will be president and parliament elections.

Serb · April 29, 2003, 04:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Oh yea, this thread was kind of yelling "Seeeeeeerb!"

Yeah

But I'm afraid that every thread which yelling "Seeeerb!" at the beginning, later wispers- "tsss.....Ming"

Btw, Do you really in Moscow currently or you just become a fan of Vladimir Vysotsky.

Quote:

As it stands, an American invasion is much more likely than a Russian one.

Yes. That's why we should unite. Together we can get rid of American menace.

DinoDoc · April 29, 2003, 04:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb
What kind of rebellion are you talking about?

However despite admitting to violence and the rebels' reign over parts of Chechnya, Rushailo stressed that preparations for the referendum were continuing.
http://www.cdi.org/russia/242-9.cfm

Quote:

March 23 there was referendum there was 3 questions:

I wouldn't stake much on those results.

'Mockery' poll

First, threats by the rebels to thwart the referendum by new massive attacks.

Then, a row with the Council of Europe which refused to send in its observers, arguing that the war-like situation in Chechnya was not conducive to such a poll.

Now, a large body of Russian and Chechen public opinion says the referendum will be a mockery and a lie.

Thirty non-governmental organisations have petitioned President Putin to cancel the referendum.

They claim it was conceived by a group of pro-Moscow bureaucrats who do not represent anybody, and warn that its results would not be recognised by most Chechens.

They suspect the vote will be rigged by the military, who, they say, are the only real power in Chechnya.

On the other hand, they argue that the military have failed to establish any semblance of order in the republic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2848893.stm

Harovan · April 29, 2003, 04:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb
Btw, Do you really in Moscow currently or you just become a fan Vladimir Vysotsky.

I'm behind my work desk in Bavaria. I may pick a trip to Piter later this year, though. They celebrate 300 years since foundation.

I'm a fan of Vysotsky for more than 20 years, and currently am listening "Kak po Volge matushke" with my headphones

.

Serb · April 29, 2003, 05:12

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
However despite admitting to violence and the rebels' reign over parts of Chechnya, Rushailo stressed that preparations for the referendum were continuing.
http://www.cdi.org/russia/242-9.cfm

AND?
The preparations for the referendum were successfully continued. Referendum was more than a month ago.

Quote:

I wouldn't stake much on those results.

You are using two month old sources, two month old sepculations of terorist supporters. Great!

Quote:

First, threats by the rebels to thwart the referendum by new massive attacks.

Bullshit. Their predictions were wrong.
There was no a single terrorist attack during referendum.

Quote:

Then, a row with the Council of Europe which refused to send in its observers, arguing that the war-like situation in Chechnya was not conducive to such a poll.

Who cares? We said that ANY country, ANY foreign or domestic human right organistion could send its representatives to observe the referendum. Everyony who wanted to be there and wanted to see who Chechens make their choice did. If Council of Europe refused to send their representatives its their problem, not ours.

Quote:

Now, a large body of Russian and Chechen public opinion says the referendum will be a mockery and a lie.

Bullshit. Once again their predictions were wrong.
The independent observers from DOZENS of foreign countries and DOZENS of various organistations were there and none of them protested the results of this referendum Hell there were so many representatives of loacal opposition to Kremlin that if they found something suspicious they would made HUGE scadal, consider that soon will be parliament elections in Russia and compaign already started.
Once again all observers confirmed that elections were ABSOLUTELY fair.

Quote:

Thirty non-governmental organisations have petitioned President Putin to cancel the referendum.

non-governmental organisations?
The same organiisations that covertly buying ammo and rifles for terrorists. Big deal.

Quote:

They claim it was conceived by a group of pro-Moscow bureaucrats who do not represent anybody, and warn that its results would not be recognised by most Chechens.

AGAIN whine and super-bullsh!t, because those predictions were wrong too.
80%, [/QUOTE] 80 of all voters participated in referendum. Aprox. 96% said "YES" to new constitution, which says that Chechnya is part of Russia.
Case is closed.

Quote:

They suspect the vote will be rigged by the military, who, they say, are the only real power in Chechnya.

Blah...blah...blah... See above about observers from foreign countries.
[QUOTE]On the other hand, they argue that the military have failed to establish any semblance of order in the republic.[/i]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2848893.stm
Yeah, sure.

Those guys prefer the "order" their masters established in Chechnya in 1996-1999. Order with SLAVERY, but without basic human rights. In comparison with kind of order which was in Chechnya when Maskhadov and all those "glorious freedom fighters" were in charge (after we withdrawn in 1996), modern Chechnya is heaven.

Serb · April 29, 2003, 05:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

I'm behind my work desk in Bavaria. I may pick a trip to Piter later this year, though. They celebrate 300 years since foundation.

I know

It would be a problem for you to find a hotel room now. I heard all hotels already pre-ordered.

Quote:

I'm a fan of Vysotsky for more than 20 years, and currently am listening "Kak po Volge matushke" with my headphones

.

Ralph, ty opredelenno silno "obrusevshii" nemez.

Harovan · April 29, 2003, 05:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb
It would be a problem for you to find a hotel room now. I heard all hotels already pre-ordered.

I will stay with mother- and father-in-law.

Oh, </threadjack>, btw.

Propaganda · April 29, 2003, 06:10

I don't have much to say on the subject at hand, but I would like to say that I await the day we(all the people of the former Soviet republics) overthrow all the lying bastards of 1991(actually, 1956 would be more appropriate).

When this glorious day comes, I'll be in pursuit of Yeltsin, Putin, Gorbachev, Zhirinovsky, Zyuganov, etc. and I wont stop until I take all of the bastards down(with me, if that's what it takes).

And oh yes....

POWER TO THE SOVIETS!

TCO · April 29, 2003, 06:16

go directly to gulag

Serb · April 29, 2003, 06:25

Quote:

I will stay with mother- and father-in-law.

You are lucky then. I heard there will be aproximately 2 millions of visitors during celabrations.

Quote:

Oh, , btw.

Yes, but who cares? This thread isn't interesting, because it's unrealistic. "Russia+Germany+France vs. USA+GB" would be much better thread.

Saras · April 29, 2003, 06:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Propaganda
I don't have much to say on the subject at hand, but I would like to say that I await the day we(all the people of the former Soviet republics) overthrow all the lying bastards of 1991

Dream on