April 29, 2003, 17:14
|
#1
|
Emperor
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
|
Troll a sincere prolifer.
Spiffor suggested that the discussion in the protest thread be moved to here.
The protest thread:
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...threadid=84626
Quote:
|
What about killing germs? I mean, who knows we aren't wiping out a future evolutionary chain of intelligent, sentient beings.
|
-Sava
Quote:
|
Sperm and zygotes are "potential persons" in my eyes.
|
- Asher
That might work, except for the fact that I am arguing zygotes are not potential persons, but actual persons.
Asher, what justification do you have for classifying zygotes as potential persons? What makes them different from us?
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:18
|
#2
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
You are first considered a person when you're born, which is why we celebrate your birthdate and not your date of conception. IMHO, anyway.
I consider the zygotes and sperm as "potential persons" because they're both not persons yet. Sperm must be with an egg, and the fetus must be with the womb.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:22
|
#3
|
Emperor
Local Time: 20:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 5,605
|
Those aren't very good trolls. Let me give it a shot...
"So, Obiwan, why do you hate women so much?  "
__________________
"For just twenty cents a day, we'll moisten your dreams with man urine." -Space Ghost
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:23
|
#4
|
Emperor
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: It doesn't matter what your name is!
Posts: 3,601
|
A Zygote can't live on its own without the host. Without this link, it cannot grow. Therefore, it is not living.
__________________
"Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez
"I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:23
|
#5
|
Local Time: 02:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
|
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:26
|
#6
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
In the future can you hyphenate pro-life please? I keep reading it was "profiler"...
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:29
|
#7
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
actually, in the life/choice arguement, I have lots of doubts.
For example, how do fetae (sp?) differ from people in coma on life support?
Quote:
|
In the future can you hyphenate pro-life please? I keep reading it was "profiler
|
I read it as a something that means that lately, there have been to many trolls on apolyton. The "pro-liferation" of trolls.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:29
|
#8
|
King
Local Time: 20:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,681
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Asher
You are first considered a person when you're born, which is why we celebrate your birthdate and not your date of conception.
|
That seems rather arbitrary...
But wait, any point chosen is arbitrary, and usually only serves to aid the arguments of whomever chose it.
Question: Does not every person have free will? And hence a consequent ability to have opinions and make choices that may sometimes differ from your own?
If you accept that statement, then you should accept it always, regardless of context, and no matter what your own free will allowed your opinions and choices to be.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:29
|
#9
|
Just another peon
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: who killed Poly
Posts: 22,919
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Asher
In the future can you hyphenate pro-life please? I keep reading it was "profiler"...
|
Hmm, I did too.
__________________
The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:30
|
#10
|
Emperor
Local Time: 00:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mu Mu Land
Posts: 6,570
|
Quote:
|
In the future can you hyphenate pro-life please? I keep reading it was "profiler"...
|
me too, and I thought this thread would be interesting.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:32
|
#11
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
This IS an interesting thread.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:32
|
#12
|
Emperor
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
|
loinburger:
Women are evil creatures created to tempt men into fallenness. Just ask Laz.
Quote:
|
In the future can you hyphenate pro-life please? I keep reading it was "profiler"...
|
Asher:
Duly noted.
Quote:
|
You are first considered a person when you're born, which is why we celebrate your birthdate and not your date of conception.
|
AFAIK the Chinese start from the date of conception. This is a societal quirk of the west.
Quote:
|
I consider the zygotes and sperm as "potential persons" because they're both not persons yet. Sperm must be with an egg, and the fetus must be with the womb.
|
Dependency is a poor criterion for personhood, since we are all, in some degree, dependent upon one another for survival.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:33
|
#13
|
Warlord
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chairman & CEO, Dallas Oil Company
Posts: 142
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by orange
A Zygote can't live on its own without the host. Without this link, it cannot grow. Therefore, it is not living.
|
Human beings cannot live on their own without the Biosphere. Without this link, they cannot grow. Therefore, they are not living.
__________________
"People sit in chairs!" - Bobby Baccalieri
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:34
|
#14
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by dejon
That seems rather arbitrary...
But wait, any point chosen is arbitrary, and usually only serves to aid the arguments of whomever chose it.
Question: Does not every person have free will? And hence a consequent ability to have opinions and make choices that may sometimes differ from your own?
|
A person does, a fetus/zygote doesn't. That's why there's a distinction.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:34
|
#15
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
Too much of a strech. Take my Coma example to suit your pov.
Btw, I am really undecided on this one.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:37
|
#16
|
Emperor
Local Time: 00:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mu Mu Land
Posts: 6,570
|
too tough of a question
I can't take it seriously
so, for now I will not post.
oops
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:38
|
#17
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by obiwan18
Dependency is a poor criterion for personhood, since we are all, in some degree, dependent upon one another for survival.
|
If you want to look at it like that, but it's different.
All I'm pointing out to you is that most pro-lifers have arbitarily chosen a zygote and classified it as a person, although the very same logic can classify sperm as a person as well.
Sperm is biologically dependant on the egg, a zygote is biologically dependent on its host, but an infant is not biologically dependent specifically on its mother. As long as its fed, etc. it'll be fine.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:39
|
#18
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
Pro-choicers have aribtrarily classified a person in a coma on life support being a person as well.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:39
|
#19
|
Emperor
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
|
Well, you have to ask yourself, what is it about a person that warrants legal protection. I would argue that the qualifying property is sentience; that is, the complexity of their neural and nervous systems make legal protection warranted.
The idea that zygotes may become persons in the future, conditional upon many things, is not relevant to legal protection just as the idea that sperm or eggs may become persons in the future is not relevant to legal protection. Neither zygotes, nor sperm and ova have the neural and nervous sytems to warrant legal protection.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:40
|
#20
|
Emperor
Local Time: 20:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Having tea with the Third Man...
Posts: 6,169
|
If my parents kept track of my date of conception and celebrated it instead of my birthday, I would be VERY disturbed. ("We had some real good sex that night, son! Be proud!")
With that said, by dejon's argument I should be allowed to kick him in the crotch, steal his stuff, and rape his mother, all because, dang it all, I have free will. Honestly, that argument makes very little sense.
My argument always has been and always will be, "if it ain't a person now, it will be eventually, and you're killing the same thing either way." Pro-life. Yay.
__________________
"May I be forgiven for the ills that I have done/Friends I have forsaken and strangers I have shunned/Sins I have committed, for which others had to pay/And I haven't met the whiskey that can wash those stains away."
-Brady's Leap, "Wash."
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:40
|
#21
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Azazel
Pro-choicers have aribtrarily classified a person in a coma on life support being a person as well.
|
A person in a coma is a person.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:40
|
#22
|
Emperor
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
|
Quote:
|
For example, how do fetae (sp?) differ from people in coma on life support?
|
Azazel,
"unborn children."
I would argue that there are no significant differences between a person in a coma and an unborn child, with respect to personhood.
And I love your proliferation pun.
dejon:
Quote:
|
But wait, any point chosen is arbitrary, and usually only serves to aid the arguments of whomever chose it.
|
Not necessarily. Conception is rather special in that the union of a sperm and egg create a human being with all the genetic material that they need to live and grow.
Quote:
|
Question: Does not every person have free will? And hence a consequent ability to have opinions and make choices that may sometimes differ from your own?
|
All persons have the intrinsic capacity for free will. They may not currently be exercising their free will, but this does not disqualify them from personhood.
Quote:
|
If you accept that statement, then you should accept it always, regardless of context, and no matter what your own free will allowed your opinions and choices to be.
|
One person's rights end where another's begin. If the unborn child is a person, then we have a duty to respect the life, even if it means sacrifices by the society to do so.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:41
|
#23
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
EDIT: X-post.
Asher: a person with minimal neural activity is still a person? how so? he/she doesn't think, you know. And if we pull the plug on them, they'll die. What's the difference?
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:41
|
#24
|
Warlord
Local Time: 00:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 155
|
why not start at when the fetus gains sentience?
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:43
|
#25
|
Emperor
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
|
Quote:
|
Pro-choicers have aribtrarily classified a person in a coma on life support being a person as well.
|
A comatose person has a functioning brain and nervous system. If you go to sleep, your brain doesn't shut off.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:43
|
#26
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Azazel
So, could anyone please reply to my coma example?
|
I don't see how it's at all relevant.
1) People can come out of comas
2) People in comas are not specifically biologically dependent on a host/another organism
3) People in comas have been shown to be able to hear and be aware of their surroundings at least some of the time
4) People in comas are already people, they're just sick
5) People in comas already have developed a brain and sentience, etc
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:45
|
#27
|
Emperor
Local Time: 00:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mu Mu Land
Posts: 6,570
|
Quote:
|
If my parents kept track of my date of conception and celebrated it instead of my birthday, I would be VERY disturbed. ("We had some real good sex that night, son! Be proud!")
|
It would be worse if they dreaded that day!
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:45
|
#28
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Azazel
EDIT: X-post.
Asher: a person with minimal neural activity is still a person? how so? he/she doesn't think, you know. And if we pull the plug on them, they'll die. What's the difference?
|
I'm confused: You just said a person with minimal neural activity is still a person?
You just said he's a person and he's not a person.
And I'm also really unsure why you think they can't think -- haven't you heard of the cases where people in comas can hear and understand what goes on around them?
People are in comas because their body/brain is trying to heal itself. They are people, they're just sick people.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:46
|
#29
|
Emperor
Local Time: 03:25
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
|
"Coma" was the wrong word. I mean the condition when people that have no neural activity, but that are not vegetable.
|
|
|
|
April 29, 2003, 17:47
|
#30
|
President of the OT
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 40,843
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Azazel
"Coma" was the wrong word. I mean the condition when people that have no neural activity, but that are not vegetable.
|
"Brain-dead" for lack of a better word?
Well that's an iffy situation, I really don't know enough about it to have an answer for you.
__________________
"I'll never doubt you again when it comes to hockey, [Prince] Asher." - Guynemer
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:25.
|
|