Modern Fixes Mod: what are your thoughts?

[Kuciwalker]

What do you think about these changes? Suggestions, comments?

Modern Fixes Mod *PTW Only*

Little Changes:

- SETTLERS NOW COST 8!
- Aqueducts now cost 18 (from 10)
- Citizens eat 3 food
- Palace now counts as Aqueduct
- Police Stations and Courthouses now reduce propaganda, corruption, and war weariness.
- Lighthouse now becomes obselete with Steam Power
- Colossus and Oracle never become obselete
- Now there is an 80% chance to intercept normal air units
- Seriously upgraded bombard power and range of all air units
- Cruise missiles do more damage and count as Tactical Missiles
- All bombard units (including ships and aircraft) after the Catapult can sink ships
- Battleship, Bomber, Radar Artillery, Jet Fighter, F-15, Stealth Fighter, and Stealth Bomber can kill land units
- Bomber, Stealth Fighter, and Stealth Bomber can no longer be on Carriers
- Aegis Cruisers now carry 2 tactical missiles
- Nuclear Submarines now carry 6 tactical missiles
- Added Nuclear Carrier, comes with Nuclear Power, carries 6 air units, requires Uranium, Aluminum, and Iron, same stats as Carrier otherwise
- Tweaked Marine and Paratrooper stats
- Added Marines (upgrade from Marine), comes with Miniturization, attack 20 defense 16 cost 12, same stats as Marine otherwise
- Destroyes now see invisible; Aegis Cruisers do not
- Added Paratroopers (upgrade from Paratrooper), comes with Synthetic Fibers, attack 18 defense 18 cost 12, same stats as Paratrooper otherwise
- Added Modern Infantry (upgrade from Infantry), comes with Synthetic Fibers, attack 12 defense 20 cost 11, same stats as Infantry otherwise
- Mech. Infantry now costs 6, has attack 4 defense 4, moves 3 and ignores all terrain penalties, does not draft or upgrade from Infantry, carries 2 foot units, comes with Motorized Transportation
- Guerillas now ignore all terrain movement penalties.
- Added Special Forces (upgrade from Guerilla), attack 22 defense 14 cost 13, require Oil and Rubber, can Airdrop, have ZOC, otherwise same stats as Guerilla
- Added Engineer (upgrades from Worker), comes with Radio, same stats as Worker, see below

Tech Changes:

- Embassies and RoP's now require Literature
- Military Alliances now require Feudalism
- Trade over sea tiles and Map Trading now require Navigation
- Trade over ocean tiles and Communication Trading now require Steam Power

BIG Changes:

- ALL "infantry" (not arty, horsie, or vehicle) can Amphibious Assault except Spearmen, Pikemen, Hoplites, and Impis. (Conquistadors can too)

My thinking here is that historically, they COULD assault from ships even back in the Ancient Ages. Game-wise, the Berserker is too powerful, and it also removes the invincible one-tile-island.

- ALL "infantry" (same defination as before) after and including Riflemen move 2.

This increases the mobility of infantry units, making them more viable for offensive roles (or even just escorts to Cavalry). It also makes terrain more of a concern, because infantry units WILL move faster in open terrain.

- ALL land units except Scouts, Explorers, Guerillas, Special Forces, and Engineers, are "wheeled". Moreover, now Jungles do not prevent passage of wheeled units; only Mountains do.

I saw this in the Civ3 General forum a while ago and thought it was a good idea. Now, Mountains are effectively impassible; you can't even build roads on them until Radio (that's the purpose of the Engineer - so you can build terrain improvements and roads on Mountains). The only military units that can move through them are Guerillas and Special Forces, giving these units a very important role.

- Aqueducts now required to have more than TWO pop, Hospitals for more than 6

This is even more drastic than it seems. This means that only cities with your Palace, Aqueduct, or that are next to a river can produce settlers. Coupled with the insanely expensive Settlers and Aqueducts, this should REALLY cut down on expansion. It also makes Rivers VERY important, which is historically accurate.

- ALL Sea units after and including the Ironclad (and the Transport) treat all terrain as roads. Ironclad, Transport, Submarine, Battleship, Carrier, Nuclear Submarine, and Nuclear Carrier all move 2. Destroyer and Aegis Cruiser move 3. Ocean tiles require 3 movement points, Sea tiles require 2.

This increases sea mobility quite a bit later in the game. With Steam Power (and therefore Ironclads) you finally have ships that can traverse the ocean in something less than forever. However, before that, it is VERY difficult, slowing exploration.

The Big Idea:

Half of this mod started because I was annoyed about how air units were pretty worthless. So way back when, I modified my own .bic file (yep, vanilla civ) to have much more powerful air units (and added the whole bombardment kill stuff too). With

PtW I increased the range (now the Stealth Bomber has a range of 24!), and I liked the result. I also didn't like the Mech Infantry, so I created a Modern Infantry and turned the Mech Infantry into a troop transport. Also, Paratroopers and Marines were useless, so I created modern equivalents.

The other half was done because I hated the slow movement of ships in the modern era, but I like the slow movement in the ancient and middle eras. So I made Ocean and Sea tiles have high move costs (also making them almost impossible to survive),

but gave Ironclads on up low moves (2's and 3's) but All Terrain as Roads, making them move quite quickly and be unaffected by Ocean and Sea. I also added the Nuclear Carrier, which I felt was missing. I toyed around with a Cruiser, but it was just unecessary clutter.

The third and final half was prompted by some recent discussions on the Civ3 General board about how to keep the whole map from being discovered etc. by 200 AD. That's also where I encountered the Impassible Mountains idea (actually, that may have been on Creation). Increased Settler cost, increased food consuption, and drastically moving back map trading, etc. were all proposed. I did, however, come up with the pop limits thing on my own. I'm not sure what effect it will have, as I haven't tested it, but I think it will work well.

(This mod is available in the Files forum)

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by skywalker
What do you think about these changes? Suggestions, comments?

OK, here goes

Modern Fixes Mod *PTW Only*

Little Changes:

- SETTLERS NOW COST 8!
- Aqueducts now cost 18 (from 10)
- Citizens eat 3 food
- Palace now counts as Aqueduct

Now THIS is steep.
Adds to a challange
It makes City States a possibility
But, the citizens can starve very easy

Police Stations and Courthouses now reduce propaganda, corruption, and war weariness.
- Lighthouse now becomes obselete with Steam Power
- Colossus and Oracle never become obselete
- Now there is an 80% chance to intercept normal air units
- Seriously upgraded bombard power and range of all air units
- Cruise missiles do more damage and count as Tactical Missiles
- All bombard units (including ships and aircraft) after the Catapult can sink ships
- Battleship, Bomber, Radar Artillery, Jet Fighter, F-15, Stealth Fighter, and Stealth Bomber can kill land units

Lethal bombard against ships, IMO, is a must

I don't think leathal land is a good idea, because it makes bombard more powerful then it was

- Bomber, Stealth Fighter, and Stealth Bomber can no longer be on Carriers

Why?

- Aegis Cruisers now carry 2 tactical missiles

Hooray!!!

- Nuclear Submarines now carry 6 tactical missiles

Ooh, 6.

Might be a lot for a little sub

- Added Nuclear Carrier, comes with Nuclear Power, carries 6 air units, requires Uranium, Aluminum, and Iron, same stats as Carrier otherwise

Not a bad unit idea

- Tweaked Marine and Paratrooper stats
- Added Marines (upgrade from Marine), comes with Miniturization, attack 20 defense 16 cost 12, same stats as Marine otherwise
- Destroyes now see invisible; Aegis Cruisers do not

I think they both should, but the fact that Destroyers don't in regular Civ is a major error

- Added Paratroopers (upgrade from Paratrooper), comes with Synthetic Fibers, attack 18 defense 18 cost 12, same stats as Paratrooper otherwise
- Added Modern Infantry (upgrade from Infantry), comes with Synthetic Fibers, attack 12 defense 20 cost 11, same stats as Infantry otherwise
- Mech. Infantry now costs 6, has attack 4 defense 4, moves 3 and ignores all terrain penalties, does not draft or upgrade from Infantry, carries 2 foot units, comes with Motorized Transportation

Well, if you think about it, wouldn't they have trouble going through forest?

- Guerillas now ignore all terrain movement penalties.
- Added Special Forces (upgrade from Guerilla), attack 22 defense 14 cost 13, require Oil and Rubber, can Airdrop, have ZOC, otherwise same stats as Guerilla
- Added Engineer (upgrades from Worker), comes with Radio, same stats as Worker, see below

Don't forget, if one is captured, they turn into workers

Tech Changes:

- Embassies and RoP's now require Literature
- Military Alliances now require Feudalism
- Trade over sea tiles and Map Trading now require Navigation
- Trade over ocean tiles and Communication Trading now require Steam Power

BIG Changes:

- ALL "infantry" (not arty, horsie, or vehicle) can Amphibious Assault except Spearmen, Pikemen, Hoplites, and Impis. (Conquistadors can too)

My thinking here is that historically, they COULD assault from ships even back in the Ancient Ages. Game-wise, the Berserker is too powerful, and it also removes the invincible one-tile-island.

- ALL "infantry" (same defination as before) after and including Riflemen move 2.

This increases the mobility of infantry units, making them more viable for offensive roles (or even just escorts to Cavalry). It also makes terrain more of a concern, because infantry units WILL move faster in open terrain.

I thought about something like this (Inf. had a move of 2, Light Infantry had 3, Heavy Cavalry had 4, Light Cavalry had 5)
You might want to give Hoplites a 1 move. They wore 75 pounds of armor and slowed down the battle, so the victor wouldn't win with anything but just pushing forward.

- ALL land units except Scouts, Explorers, Guerillas, Special Forces, and Engineers, are "wheeled". Moreover, now Jungles do not prevent passage of wheeled units; only Mountains do.

I saw this in the Civ3 General forum a while ago and thought it was a good idea. Now, Mountains are effectively impassible; you can't even build roads on them until Radio (that's the purpose of the Engineer - so you can build terrain improvements and roads on Mountains). The only military units that can move through them are Guerillas and Special Forces, giving these units a very important role.

I think Jungle should still affect Wheeled units (I think you can set it so some units ignore Jungle move penalties, I would give Infantry that)

- Aqueducts now required to have more than TWO pop, Hospitals for more than 6

This is even more drastic than it seems. This means that only cities with your Palace, Aqueduct, or that are next to a river can produce settlers. Coupled with the insanely expensive Settlers and Aqueducts, this should REALLY cut down on expansion. It also makes Rivers VERY important, which is historically accurate.

That IS steep. Again, make sure your people don't starve

- ALL Sea units after and including the Ironclad (and the Transport) treat all terrain as roads. Ironclad, Transport, Submarine, Battleship, Carrier, Nuclear Submarine, and Nuclear Carrier all move 2. Destroyer and Aegis Cruiser move 3. Ocean tiles require 3 movement points, Sea tiles require 2.

This increases sea mobility quite a bit later in the game. With Steam Power (and therefore Ironclads) you finally have ships that can traverse the ocean in something less than forever. However, before that, it is VERY difficult, slowing exploration.

The Big Idea:

Half of this mod started because I was annoyed about how air units were pretty worthless. So way back when, I modified my own .bic file (yep, vanilla civ) to have much more powerful air units (and added the whole bombardment kill stuff too). With

PtW I increased the range (now the Stealth Bomber has a range of 24!), and I liked the result.

I hated the weakness in Naval units. I thought of a way to dramatically increase them, I then continued to Air units. Could you post your unit stats? I'm curious if the final result will be similar.

I also didn't like the Mech Infantry, so I created a Modern Infantry and turned the Mech Infantry into a troop transport. Also, Paratroopers and Marines were useless, so I created modern equivalents.

The other half was done because I hated the slow movement of ships in the modern era, but I like the slow movement in the ancient and middle eras. So I made Ocean and Sea tiles have high move costs (also making them almost impossible to survive),

but gave Ironclads on up low moves (2's and 3's) but All Terrain as Roads, making them move quite quickly and be unaffected by Ocean and Sea. I also added the Nuclear Carrier, which I felt was missing. I toyed around with a Cruiser, but it was just unecessary clutter.

The third and final half was prompted by some recent discussions on the Civ3 General board about how to keep the whole map from being discovered etc. by 200 AD. That's also where I encountered the Impassible Mountains idea (actually, that may have been on Creation). Increased Settler cost, increased food consuption, and drastically moving back map trading, etc. were all proposed. I did, however, come up with the pop limits thing on my own. I'm not sure what effect it will have, as I haven't tested it, but I think it will work well.

(This mod is available in the Files forum)

[Kuciwalker]

I only added lethal bombard against land to a few specific units. I'm thinking, though, maybe the Bomber shouldn't have it. However, I do like the fact that it allows navies to project power.

The Bomber and Stealth aircraft can't be on because they can't fit in real life. It also forces you to use Jet Fighters, which I think are THE coolest-looking unit in the game

Regarding the sub, I think it's a bunch too. I wanted there to be a reason to build it, though. I'm not sure if I'll keep this if there's another version.

Again, you need a reason to build destroyers. Also, I don't think Aegis cruisers actually have ASW capability. Anyone know for sure?

Maybe I'll disable the Mech Infantry. If they have terrain penalties, though, they're pretty worthless

I never realized they'd turn into workers, but I kinda like the idea. Slaves aren't going to be as effective.

Hoplites already have one move. It's just the riflemen and later who have two.

Jungle doesn't affect wheeled units because if it did, NO ground unit could enter. I don't know if the ignore flag affects the wheeled thing though. Again, anyone know?

I don't think starvation will be a problem, because it'll be hard to get enough people. I want to really cut down on size and make each city a serious investment.

I don't know all of my changes, but I'll see what I can figure out (nothing tonight, though... I'm staying up past bedtime ). A lot of this was put together in about forty minutes from two or three modified .bix files.

[Colonel Rhombus]

I thought Stealth Fighters could be launched from Carriers in real life.

[statusperfect]

Interesting takes on the game.

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by skywalker
I only added lethal bombard against land to a few specific units. I'm thinking, though, maybe the Bomber shouldn't have it. However, I do like the fact that it allows navies to project power.

Mu only thinking is, if you are being bombed, you can hide in the dirt, and may survive. If Navies or Air had Lethal Bombard, it would allow you to do a D-Day scenario without compition (you keep Bombing until noone is left)

The Bomber and Stealth aircraft can't be on because they can't fit in real life. It also forces you to use Jet Fighters, which I think are THE coolest-looking unit in the game

Regarding the sub, I think it's a bunch too. I wanted there to be a reason to build it, though. I'm not sure if I'll keep this if there's another version.

I think it would be better to build than an Aegis because it is invisible

Again, you need a reason to build destroyers. Also, I don't think Aegis cruisers actually have ASW capability. Anyone know for sure?

I know they had that power in Civ2. You could make it so Destroyers are cheaper than any naval vessel (except Subs) and Faster then any naval vessel. Since Aegis Cruisers can launch missiles, I guess they really don't need the ability

Maybe I'll disable the Mech Infantry. If they have terrain penalties, though, they're pretty worthless

Then, never mind. Do what's best for gameplay

I never realized they'd turn into workers, but I kinda like the idea. Slaves aren't going to be as effective.

The reason is because of Pop costs. If you capture a Settler (2 pop) it turns into 2 workers. If you capture anything with 1 pop, it turns into 1 worker.

Hoplites already have one move. It's just the riflemen and later who have two.

Jungle doesn't affect wheeled units because if it did, NO ground unit could enter. I don't know if the ignore flag affects the wheeled thing though. Again, anyone know?

I don't think starvation will be a problem, because it'll be hard to get enough people. I want to really cut down on size and make each city a serious investment.

I understand, it's just that a city square produces 1 food, a grassland produces 2. With the despotism penalty, you would need Wheat or Cattle to maintain that 6 food per turn.

Also, don't forget. With less cities, there is less science. Tech costs need to be balanced.

I don't know all of my changes, but I'll see what I can figure out (nothing tonight, though... I'm staying up past bedtime ). A lot of this was put together in about forty minutes from two or three modified .bix files.

Good night, or since I had to go to bed too

Good Morning

[Dominae]

I like the idea of making Settlers cost more, but 8 is far too much. Coupled with the mod of making citizens eat 3 Food, and you're up for a pretty long and boring early-game; since you have to irrigate all but the most Food-intensive start locations, your production will be way down, and it's going to be a looonnng time before even that first Settler comes out. With the recent changes to the AI, computer-controlled Workers build Mines more often in Despotism, so I think you would see some bad AI performance too (although all this would change once Monarchy rolls around, but that's a long time away) with expansion so stunted.


Dominae

[Louis XXIV]

Hold on, with a pop cost of 8, and hospitals needed after 6, how do you get a second city?

Maybe a settler cost of 4 would be fair (You would still need an aqueduct, river, or capital)

I like increased food consumption (and it works well with good food tiles, allowing players to siege a city)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Hold on, with a pop cost of 8, and hospitals needed after 6, how do you get a second city?

You've got two things wrong (I hope I'm right!):

1. skywalker's mod increases the Shield cost of Settlers to 8 (which equals 80 Shields), not 8 pop points.

2. skywalker's mod makes Aqueducts cost more, but they still have the same effect (i.e. allow growth beyond size 6). The capital gets a free Aqueduct presumably to help along early expansion.


Dominae

[Nor Me]

The Palace/aqueduct needed to go beyond size 2 and settler cost 8 is insane. Couple of things I'd worry about:

1) Does the AI build the palace to grow beyond size 2 or anything silly like that?

2) If a capital not on a river grows beyond size 2 and is captured, it needs to be shrunk to size 2 to build an aqueduct. The AI doesn't know this.

The player knows that the only places worth building cities is where bonus food is near water and would be prepared to fight for such spots. One of these is likely to be an AI starting position. If the AI don't have any free starting units, their first city will be defended by warriors before they build that 80 shield settler. That's just too tempting.

Dominae, no, skywalker clearly says that aqueducts are needed to grow beyond size TWO.

[Kuciwalker]

I'll cut the 3 food requirement. The aqueduct thing is enough to keep growth in check. Also, since settlers can only be built in aqueduct cities (or river or Capitol), they can cost, say 5.

Oh, and I've noticed in my games where Capitol acts as an aqueduct that the DM or governor (forget which) says "City X needs a Palace to continue growing." I need to think of a way to disable that.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by skywalker
I'll cut the 3 food requirement.

The player can OCC much better than the AI. This may be an optimal strategy. On a standard map, it still may be possible to build no settlers and win.

You might not like REX but one of the major advantage of Civ3 over its predecessors is that the AI can do it. I don't think it can be fixed easily without making the game much easier.

[Louis XXIV]

What you might want to consider is adding extra food to each tile, but keep the 3 food consumption

That way you can siege cities and starve them

[MoonWolf]

Skywalker, I would like to meet you and make a perfect mod... I was amazed to see someone thinking as close to myself as this!

I've played games where the pop consume 3 food. It's too much. 2 like it is, is fine.

Increasing movement and adjusting the modern units is something I'm working on as well. Instead of commenting every part in your mod, I list my own (still testing) and some future plans I have. Please note it's meant for larger maps:

-HP increases with time. Newer units have more HP. It was too stupid seeing a spearman beat a tank.
-Corruption is decreased. My large test map (200x200) have Optimal # cities 54
-Magnetism provides Governor's House,;a 2nd FP, cost 10GPT
-The Corporation provides 1st, 2nd and 3rd Superior Court; 3 more FPs, 20GPT, no culture and requires courthouse in the city
-Longevity comes with Sanitation.
-Added Oasis (6 food), Fertile Cattle (4 food, 2 shields) and Fertile Wheat (4 food) to increase food production (IMO, cities should be allowed to grow BIG like in real world
-Gold provides 6 commerce
-Oil provides 3 shields and 6 commerce
-Road movement increased to 6
-Paratrooper attacks with 8 (I've never tested this yet...)
-Marine attack/defense with 10/8
-Longbowmen have a bomard of 2, with 0 range (for defense)
-To make battleships more useful, they ADM at 18/18/4 with all terrain as roads, blitz attack, carry one foot soldier and have 3 extra HPs
-Other sea vessels in the ind age and later moves 19-30 depending on their type and have lethal sea and land bombardment (not land for destroyer)
-Carrier carries 6.
-Cruise missiles bombards at 20, have 8 range and rate of fire at 6 and airlifts
-Added iron as requirement for many newer units.
-Galley moves 6, Galleon 9, the Magnetism units and Ironclad 12
-All ground units (expect armies) may airlift
-All aircrafts have lethal land and sea bombardment (not sea for fighter)
-Increased aircraft ranges; fighter 6, bomber 10, jet figher/f-15 10, helicopter 10, stealth figher 15, stealth bomber 50 (but cost 32)
-Increased bombardment and rate of fire of aircrafts
-Cannon and hwach'a have lethal land bombardment + sea for artys and radar artys (radar artys also move 2)
-Guerillas have blitz, radar and ignore move cost for all terrains

Future changes:
-Carrier no longer carries bombers, but I want to add a small bomber like F-14s carrying bombs or WW2 Corsair carrying torpedoes
-Make it more useful to research monarchy
-Add some kind of colonist unit made for moving people like when Europeans emigrated to Americia
-Maybe add newer versions of all the ind. sea vessel when nuclear power is available; this to make them go faster
-Have a closer look at the oasis, maybe decrease their food output.
-Increase the strength of barbarian units somehow
-Maybe add "all terrain as roads" to all ships to make it more difficult with hit-and-run attacks
-....and some of Skywalker's idea if he/she doens't mind! Escpeially thinking of higher sea movement costs and decreasing the fast expansion

Think that was all, I might have forgotten something. Please don't think if this as off-topic; it's just my contribution to make the perfect mod.