Mayday! - Page 2

Giancarlo · May 1, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
Perhaps he's ignorant of working conditions before WW2. 20 hour days, child labor, unsafe conditions... all in the name of profit. In fact, socially minded presidents like Teddy and FDR instituted such great improvements to this country. But Fez wants to return to the good old days when trusts and tycoons effectively ruled the country.

I would of never wanted that. Any of that. Infact I would of voted for Teddy Roosevelt if I were alive at the time. You would even call me a liberal at that time, not a conservative.

I am not for slavery or kleptocracy, but true capitalism where the middle class is allowed to develop.

Kidicious · May 1, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
You people are full of it. Plain and simple.

No it is not discussable. It is a fact. Capitalism = freedom.

Hitler was a leftist.

Whatever. You have to acknowledge my point though. Capitalism means freedom for capitalists and Nazism meant freedom for Hitler.

Boris Godunov · May 1, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
Hitler was a leftist.

Of all the dumb things you have said, this ranks up near the top.

See, your posts are exactly like they were before you left. You haven't changed a bit. Welcome back, jack!

Oerdin · May 1, 2003, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Please Fez, linking capitalism to bigotry is very discussable, but if you deny any link between capitalism and imperialism, you don't know squat about the politics and economics of the end of the 19th & the beginning of the 20th century...

Maniac: Please tell me how you'd link Imperialism exclusively with Capitalism. Especially given that both the USSR and Communist China had/have Empires of a sort. Also how would you describe pre-capitalist (using Ingles definition here) Empires such as Mesopotamia, Eygpt, the Inca, etc... given that you have attributed Imperialism solely to capitalism?

Giancarlo · May 1, 2003, 14:02

Kidicious, you got problems if you think like that. Then keep the communism out of my life. Leave it out! I don't want to hear any of it.

Boris, you are foolish. You don't know me. You never have.

SlowwHand · May 1, 2003, 14:02

chequita guevara · May 1, 2003, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
May day is an old pagan celibration which communists co-opted and tried to turn into an international workers celibration.

Actually, it's because of two events that occured in Illinois that the day holds significance for us. In 1867, the State of Illinois passed a law mandating the eight-hour work day. It was to take effect, May 1st, 1867, but was ignored by bosses.

The second event, of course, was the Haymarket Massacre in Chicago, and the subsequent execution/murder of four/five innocent men (the fifth may have taken his own life--they day before his head was blown off by a blasting cap he had called for help because he said there was dynamite in his cell).

The massacre began because some damned fool threw a bomb at the police who were assembled along the south side of the demonstration, though they had been ordered to leave by Mayor Harrison. After having been so attacked, the police then opened fire on the remaining crowd, killing an unknown number. Several of the police were shot in the back, i.e., by other policeman, but the doctor who had discovered said evidence was run out of town.

You can still see the pockmarks from the bullets in one of the remaining buildings from that era, the Zeiss building on the Northeast corner of DesPlains and Lake. The only other "signs" to let someone know they are standing on one of the most important historical sites in the world are both signs of things not there. On the Southwest corner of Randolph and Des Plaines on a church building are four holes where a brass plaque was once placed. On the sidewalk on the North side of Randolph as you approach the expressway is an octagonal shaped piece of sidewalk, where a statue to the slain police once stood.

The statue has a history of its own. In the early 20th Century it stood in the middle of the street. A trolly driver drove into the statue destroying it. It was then moved to the sidewalk, where the octogan is today. In the 1960/70s, it became a target for radicals, and the statue was bombed twice, prompting it's removal to the courtyard of the Chicago Police Academy. The statue's base remained until 1996, when it was removed for the Democratic Convention.

People are trying to have the Zeiss building declared a historical monument, but the owner is fighting it. He wants to be able to sell the building to developers so they can tear it down and build lofts or offices.

Firelad · May 1, 2003, 14:02

Whee!

I couldn't get to the march (no dough to get to Tel Aviv, plus strike = no trains) but I'm with them in spirit

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:04

In my Super-Society, I would like to take the best parts of Capitalism, the best parts of Communism, combine it with Democracy, and create a socially conscious society with the opprotunity to be wealthy and successful. Some just want Fascism.

Giancarlo · May 1, 2003, 14:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
In my Super-Society, I would like to take the best parts of Capitalism, the best parts of Communism, combine it with Democracy, and create a socially conscious society with the opprotunity to be wealthy and successful. Some just want Fascism.

Dream world. For sure...

And now you are calling me a fascist.

Get real.

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin

Maniac: Please tell me how you'd link Imperialism exclusively with Capitalism. Especially given that both the USSR and Communist China had/have Empires of a sort. Also how would you describe pre-capitalist (using Ingles definition here) Empires such as Mesopotamia, Eygpt, the Inca, etc... given that you have attributed Imperialism solely to capitalism?

He didn't say exclusively. You seem to be in the Red Herring business today Oerdin.

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez

Dream world. For sure...

And now you are calling me a fascist.

Get real.

I didn't mention your name. Stop drawing conclusions.

Giancarlo · May 1, 2003, 14:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
I didn't mention your name. Stop drawing conclusions.

But you call anybody who opposes you a fascist.

And you accuse people of going on a "red herring".

Boris Godunov · May 1, 2003, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
Boris, you are foolish. You don't know me. You never have.

True, I can only know you by your actions on this board. So there ya go.

Maniac · May 1, 2003, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
But true capitalism where the middle class is allowed to develop.

Well then you have nice ideals, but in the real world those ideas are just as likely to happen and just as distant from what happens in reality than the theories of the communists you despise.

Giancarlo · May 1, 2003, 14:10

Boris: No you don't know me.

Quote:

Well then you have nice ideals, but in the real world those ideas are just as likely to happen and just as distant from what happens in reality than the theories of the communists you despise.

Really? I highly doubt that. My views would increase the size of the middle class and the standard of living. Communism does not.

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:10

Quote:

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

I point it out when it happens. As for the fascist thing? I think you are the only one I've ever accused of loving Fascist ideals... maybe Albert Speer. But that's like calling the sky, "blue".

SlowwHand · May 1, 2003, 14:14

Why do you say that about Albert?
I know, I have to take into consideration who's making the charge, still...

Menlas · May 1, 2003, 14:14

for mayday

and

for Fez too, I've never laughed so much about the OT forum since he's back

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:15

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Why do you say that about Albert?
I know, I have to take into consideration who's making the charge, still...

uhhh you are joking, right?

SlowwHand · May 1, 2003, 14:16

No. This time I'm serious. I don't know.

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:18

I really wouldn't want to get into it here, but I first noticed it when he tried to say the Holocaust didn't happen.

SlowwHand · May 1, 2003, 14:20

Oh, well. Now that's a little odd, I have to admit.

monkspider · May 1, 2003, 14:22

Hurray for May Day!

Boris Godunov · May 1, 2003, 14:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Fez
Boris: No you don't know me.

Nope. Now ask yourself: Why would I or anyone else here want to, except for entertainment value?

Maniac · May 1, 2003, 14:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin Maniac: Please tell me how you'd link Imperialism exclusively with Capitalism. Especially given that both the USSR and Communist China had/have Empires of a sort. Also how would you describe pre-capitalist (using Ingles definition here) Empires such as Mesopotamia, Eygpt, the Inca, etc... given that you have attributed Imperialism solely to capitalism?

I presume then we have a different definition of imperialism. You seem to mean every empire based on conquest and expansion, while I mean the specific situation of end-19th, begin+20th century capitalist countries such as GB, France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Belgium, USA and Japan (Did I miss any?

). A new wave of colonialism, with as most important reasons and characteristics: growing demand for colonial goods, raw materials for the industrial revolution, economic globalization, economic depression of +-1873-'93, hyper-competition between the capitalist countries (there weren't any non-capitalist major powers after all...

), decreasing prices, return to mercantilism, need for a larger consumer's market, population explosion, national prestige... You probably get the picture.

DarthVeda · May 1, 2003, 14:35

We need more parades where they pull big missiles around...

Stefu · May 1, 2003, 14:37

Those missiles make me feel so inadequate.

Sava · May 1, 2003, 14:38

They make me look bigger.

Shi Huangdi · May 1, 2003, 14:40

at Fez-Sava debates