WLTCD but no city growth??

Paradox · May 1, 2003, 14:12

So here i am in Rep with a size 12 city going along nicely in a OCC game....

I have Shakes and a Sewer and just sold my Colosseum and Temple, food surplus of 1. My luxuries are set at 30% and my pop attitude is 6 happy 6 content. No Problem. I Celebrate...or so the computer says but no city growth?? next turn still nothing.....

Why? Seems to make no sense or is this some bug i aint seen yet that may have to do with my particular city setup?

Eagerly awaiting responses so I may continue my quest

solo · May 1, 2003, 15:32

Are you supporting more than one unit outside of the city causing extra unhappiness? If so, this could prevent growth by making the first citizen unhappy.

Paradox · May 1, 2003, 15:45

No on the contrary i only have 2 units in my city...a NONE archer and a supported warrior.

Whats more confusing is the the fact that according to Pauls OCC guide
"...Once Shakespeare’s is built, you are guaranteed a city of content citizens for the rest of the game. As a result, the temple and the colosseum are no longer needed. Sell these off. This will help you buy a sewer system, which is the next thing you need to build. Bump the luxuries back up to begin WLTCD. With a sewer system, you can go to size 21. You may have food to support more people, but under a Republic without Hanging Gardens, size 21 is the max you can grow using WLTCD. "

Now i did exactly that, sold my col, temple and aqua since i needed the gold badly....but NO growth even tho i have a sewer. Odd?

Ive tested by playing a few turns ahead and building both the col+aqua again and indeed now the city grows!
But why wont it grow without these....surely Shakes takes care of happiness and sewer is all that is required to move past 12 citizens????

I think i may still have needed the aquaduct!

Elephant · May 1, 2003, 16:34

Yes: any growth beyond 8 requires Aquaduct; any growth beyond 12 requires Aquaduct AND Sewers. When you get to 21 dont sell them off: you can usually get into the mid 20s in a last burst after you switch to Democracy and have finished transforming the land with Engineers. Sometimes I also do another round after Farmland/Refrigeration.

La Fayette · May 1, 2003, 16:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Paradox
I think i may still have needed the aquaduct!

Bingo!
Don't sell it too soon

solo · May 2, 2003, 10:36

The missing aqueduct answers this question, but remember that even with Shakepeare's growth can be stopped if that first citizen does not start out as being content. This is not usually problem in OCC unless a lot of units outside of the city are being supported by it.

War4ever · May 2, 2003, 18:37

hehe....just the other day (well a month ago now) i learned that even with one food extra you can grow, all these years in mp i was shifting to make the two extra food...and often not getting the growth b/c i wasn't using the right squares....

i felt dumb

Scouse Gits · May 2, 2003, 20:33

Warz - we are surprised at you!!!

The SGs well sloshed

DrSpike · May 3, 2003, 08:16

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
hehe....just the other day (well a month ago now) i learned that even with one food extra you can grow, all these years in mp i was shifting to make the two extra food...and often not getting the growth b/c i wasn't using the right squares....

i felt dumb

Amusing that such an experienced civver should take 5 years to work this out.

I remember I went through a similar experience a few years back. I was pop-booming in a SMAC game just after it came out, when someone said "yeah, and you need 2 food, not like in civ2". Hmm, I thought, I'd better check that out............

Paradox · May 3, 2003, 13:54

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
hehe....just the other day (well a month ago now) i learned that even with one food extra you can grow, all these years in mp i was shifting to make the two extra food...and often not getting the growth b/c i wasn't using the right squares....

i felt dumb

Would you mind explaining for the uninformed pls....

My understanding and experience so far has shown no growth unless you have 2 food surplus at least with WLT*D

. I presume your'e referring to SP mode or does this apply to MP only?

DrSpike · May 3, 2003, 14:41

Nah try it out in save where you have wltcd (I can find one if you don't have one), as long as you have enough happy people you only need 1 food.

War4ever · May 3, 2003, 15:08

spike has it right, its too hard to explain on the net...but you only need one food...haha , even old civers learn new tricks

rjmatsleepers · May 4, 2003, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
Nah try it out in save where you have wltcd (I can find one if you don't have one), as long as you have enough happy people you only need 1 food.

But it can have the side effect that if there are no more food squares available the additional person means that city has a food deficit and starts consuming its stored food.

RJM at Sleepers

Scouse Gits · May 4, 2003, 05:53

... perhaps that's one reason why the game allows Food Freights

-------------------------

SG(2)

DrSpike · May 4, 2003, 07:28

Quote:

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

But it can have the side effect that if there are no more food squares available the additional person means that city has a food deficit and starts consuming its stored food.

RJM at Sleepers

Can't say that's ever happened to me.........though I guess its possible. Back in the day the SMACists used to argue that it was wrong to boom with 1 food.......and they had some convincing arguments. From my point of view anything that makes such a powerful force a little trickier is probably good. But in SMAC of course you could (with most factions) boom using SE and a coupla buildings.......you didn't even need to play with luxuries, though that did work as well.

War4ever · May 4, 2003, 16:19

the -1 food from the unwanted growth to get there can as SG states be negated with a simple food caravan...

believe it or not, food caravans play a roll that is sometimes forgotten

rjmatsleepers · May 5, 2003, 02:32

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
the -1 food from the unwanted growth to get there can as SG states be negated with a simple food caravan...

believe it or not, food caravans play a roll that is sometimes forgotten

IIRC the food caravan fills the food store. At size 23 (or whatever) this will last a long time. But,

a) what effect does it have on supply and demand lists?

b) can it displace an existing trade route?

RJM at Sleepers

Scouse Gits · May 5, 2003, 02:58

The food delivery will fill half the box and provide one extra unit of food per turn. If using this tactic to grow a city the granary is essential.

The city sending the freight will acquire a "food route" instead of a conventional trade route.

---------------------------------

SG(2)

DrSpike · May 5, 2003, 07:13

Quote:

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

b) can it displace an existing trade route?

Sure........you can deliver it to unblock commodities, or in some circumstances you can use it to build wonders with pleasant results. Check out Solo's excellent section on trade in his guide.

rah · May 5, 2003, 08:31

Yes, a growth can put you in a -1 situation. This happens less frequently in 2x production games.

When the cities get that big, if you had any type of food in the bin, or half full due to pyramids of a food caravans. The game usually ends before you would drop one pop.

RAH

War4ever · May 6, 2003, 00:28

aint that the truth, a size 12 city takes waaaaaaaaay too many turns to completely drop in pop points...besides there is always the swtiching to food tile for aturn or two to offset

rah · May 6, 2003, 08:57

Size 12

Try size 30, and that was single production so there is no extra switching. If you had 250 or so of these, maybe one would lose a pop point before the game ended. God, I hated those record point attempt games.

War4ever · May 6, 2003, 09:19

hehe i thought we were talking mp.....which in itself would take a long time even for a little size 12 city... especially since our games never last that long.

i remember the record attempt days...one turn could literally take 45min-90min depending on just how meticulous you were....

putting everything on capitalization....... WIMPS!!!!!!

rah · May 6, 2003, 09:58

The worst was when xin ming and I started looking at food caravan rotations for that little extra added pop. By then end, you were building food caravans in EVERY city, either every or every other turn. All of them had to be delivered and you had to pay attention somewhat. One night I played and only got one turn in. It was no surprise that I eventually launched the ship early (after passing Ming's current record), just to avoid shooting myself. And later when he surpassed that record, I didn't even try to beat it.
RAH

War4ever · May 6, 2003, 15:53

you should have saved where you were and gone back and continued on....but that takes the fun out of it

rah · May 6, 2003, 16:32

Trust me, there was NO fun involved at all.

And it would have been illegal according to the rules that ming and I had agreed to. You could not go back to a previous save and continue to change any strat/hut/combat. So once the ship was launched, there was no retrieving it. Launching that ship didn't relieve all the pain either. I still had to micromanage the finish. Arggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

Straybow · May 7, 2003, 01:20

If you were smart it was "only" 5 turns. Screw the extra 300 points for the max ship value.

rah · May 7, 2003, 11:06

In a points game the 300 is tempting.

But even just 5 turns would have been a torture. (highlighting why I just launched the damn ship) I couldn't do more than 1 to 1.5 turns a session at that point. MIND NUMBING PAIN.

And you must remember, I only had one goal that game. Beat Ming's current record, so once I knew I had, it was time to launch and get it over with.

RAH

Straybow · May 7, 2003, 13:32

Pride cometh before a fall, eh?

rah · May 7, 2003, 16:10

Yep.

And nothing like a twin brother to get your competitive juices flowing.

RAH