Adopt the NewCon?

Kloreep · May 1, 2003, 15:15

The consensus in this thread seems to be that we should use the NewCon and simply change it with amendments over time, rather than trying to write a new one right away. Sounds good to me, but I figured we should put it to a poll.

The NewCon can be found here. Poll lasts 7 days.

We can call this "The Compromise of 3500 BC"

Inverse Icarus · May 1, 2003, 15:39

bring on the NeoNewCon

Togas · May 1, 2003, 15:52

To be blunt, if people want a NeoNewCon so bad, they should sit down and draft one and propose it.

Until then, keep the current one and amend it as we get good ideas for changes.

--Togas

Aro · May 1, 2003, 16:51

keep the NewCon, wth some adjustments, maybe.

Octavian X · May 1, 2003, 18:06

I'd just keep it since it works. However, improvements are needed, especially in readability. Maybe, this weekend, I could change the look of it a bit...

Keep the thing for now, and slowly amend as needed.

Panag · May 1, 2003, 19:44

hi ,

, we should simply rewrite it from the start , after so many add-ons its sometimes hard to figure out what the law in question was , .....

have a nice day

MrWhereItsAt · May 1, 2003, 23:49

Keep it, unless it comes into effect before my term is up. I am NOT dealing with that thing 'till I fully understand it and all its demands.

UnOrthOdOx · May 2, 2003, 09:14

Togas, you think we could hyper link all the sections to make it easier to quick reference a section, I think this would make it far easier for people to look up something they are trying to find.

GodKing · May 2, 2003, 09:29

Keep it. For those who want to change it, do so, post it, and so forth.

Togas · May 2, 2003, 12:15

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Togas, you think we could hyper link all the sections to make it easier to quick reference a section, I think this would make it far easier for people to look up something they are trying to find.

Absolutely. And Octavian's idea about better organization is also a solid one. Both ideas have no effect on the actual law and are perfectly reasonable to do.

--Togas

Aidun · May 2, 2003, 13:18

Either write a new one, or keep the NewCon - it is still a marvellous piece of work - but check it for errors. Example: according to the NewCon, Apolytonia was, in the former Demogame a Constitutional Monarchy.

Aidun

Kloreep · May 6, 2003, 14:26

*bump*

Octavian X · May 6, 2003, 17:03

As a note, I've already reformatted Article I of the constitution for easy reading. However, time constaints have prevented me from contacting the approiate persons for editting the constituional thread.

Thud · May 6, 2003, 20:04

Huh? I thought that the poll itself indicated that we wanted to write a new constitution! Just because the majority of those who posted in that particular thread wanted to keep the NewCon doesn't mean the poll is wrong.

I can see even those that are voting for this wouldn't mind a new constitution, if it actually gets done. Fine. I thought we were going to have actual debate on this and not leave it up to another committee. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, I'll write a Constitution, and submit it for your approval.

Thud · May 6, 2003, 21:22

Okay, I've written a new Constitution, based on the Tory party platform. Pretty brief, but it really doesn't need to be any more complicated. Of course, I welcome suggestions and additions!

Article I: Royalty

The King:
a) The King is the Justice of the Realm, The King has the power to rule upon contested disputes involving legal interpretations; validity of polls and elections; violations of the Constitution, law, or Executive orders; and any other dispute of national importance.
i) The King shall come together to rule on any issue that is lawfully before Him.
ii) The King cannot act on any issue until a noble brings forth an Petition. Petitions to the King should be posted publicly.
iii) The King shall decide on His own what type of hearing it will have. He may make His own rules of procedure and enforce them upon citizens who are before the Him.
iv)The King shall keep a record of all disputes, issues, and hearings. The King shall also keep a public record of the Constitution in its most current form, listing all amendments and prior laws. The King may appoint a Clerk keep these records.
b) The King is first elected by the nobles for a three-month term, and is elected every three months thereafter.
c) The King is in charge of all workers and settlers, and determines the placement of new cities.
d) The King may rush any project in any manner, except using a Great Leader.
e) The King determines the usage of the Royal Coffers, whether to the treasury, to luxuries, or to advancement.
f) The King determines the direction of scientific inquiry.
g) The King plays the game, if the Premier is not available, and must follow the instructions of the Parliament, Ministers, and Premier while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances.
h) The King may override the decision of the Premier to resolve a Parliamentary vote, and may himself close a Parliamentary vote, if the Premier does not do so, at any time after 72 hours has elapsed.
i) The King delineates Shires and Lordships.
j) The King may appoint Deputies.

The Premier:
a) The Premier runs the Realm in the name of the King, and plays the game.
b) The Premier is the primary legislative head. Any tie is broken by his vote, and he declares the voting resolved and closed at whatever time he sees fit.
c) When playing the game, the Premier must follow the instructions of the Parliament, Ministers, and Premier while playing the game unless the instruction is clearly erroneous, or made impossible and/or harmful by changed circumstances.
d) The Premier is elected to one month terms by the Parliament.

Royal Minister for Foreign Affairs:
a) The Foreign Affairs Minister has sole power over exchanges and trade agreements with other nations, including the formation of embassies and espionage.
b) The Foreign Affairs Minister may enter into Right of Passage Agreements, but only after the approval of either the Parliament or the Royal Military Commander.
c) The Foreign Affairs Minister negotiates peace agreements, but only after the approval of either the Parliament or Royal Military Commander.
d) The Foreign Affairs Minister is elected to one month terms by the Parliament.

Royal Military Commander:
(a) The Royal Military Commander controls all units except settlers and workers.
(b) The Royal Military Commander controls only the movement of Great Leaders, however he or she shall move the Great Leader to the city of choosing of the Senate when instructed to do so.
(c) The Royal Military Commander may disband units under his or her control. A Great Leader may never be disbanded.
(d) The Royal Military Commander is elected to one month terms by the Parliament.

Article II: The Nobility and the Parliament

Rights and Responsibilities of the Nobility:
a) any person with the ability to write is considered a part of the nobility
b) any noble that is not currently a member of the the Royalty is considered a member of the Parliament
c) Any Member of Parliament (MP) has the ability to start Parliamentary votes, which must be clear, unbiased, states the proposed law in its entirety, and gives three options: “yea”, “nay”, and “abstain”.
d) These votes must start with the heading "Parliament"
e) To pass, the vote must have more "yeas" than "nays". Any tie is broken by the Premier(his vote is cast twice). The Premier or King declares the vote resolved, there is no time limit or quorum that they do not determine.
f) The Parliament has the power to declare war.
g) The Parliament has the power to set Mobilization level to “War-Time”.
h) The Parliament has the power to change the form of the government.
i) The Parliament has the power to decide how Great Leaders are used
j) The Parliament may make its own laws regarding Senate procedure.

Rights and Responsibilities of Lords:
a) Lords are elected by the Parliament to hold dominion over a shire or city.
b) Lords are responsible for city queues and worker distributions.

Amendments:
a) Amendments to this Constitution are a special case of Parliamentary vote. An amendment is passed and made official when 2/3rds or more of the citizens who vote approve of the change to the Constitution.

Elections:
a) The Parliament elects all elected positions, as detailed in those positions, and has the authority to require the Premier, King, Ministers, or Lords to step down at any time via the regular voting process.
b) Elections shall begin on the 12th of every month. The current Premier will ensure the smooth running of polling and any run-offs.
c) Elections shall end 72 hours later on the 15th of every month.
d) All candidates for office must publicly express their candidacy before elections begin.
e) No one may be a candidate for more than one elected office.
f) If no candidate for office receives more than 50% of the vote, there shall be a run-off election held from the 15th to the 18th.

Octavian X · May 7, 2003, 01:18

:hmm:

I was under the impression to poll showed the majority in favor keeping the NewCon, with the understanded that it would amended to our liking.

On your proposal: That may work, if we drop the stuff about the king and nobility, throw in a few more ministers and a court. While I don't like the document itself, this is the kind of simplicity we should aim for.

Aidun · May 7, 2003, 06:48

Nice work Thud, I support this constitution if you change the title of your post to "Constitutional Monarchy with Parliamentary Democracy"

.

Aidun

MrWhereItsAt · May 7, 2003, 10:08

/me turns pale

/tipoftheiceberg

The King is elected for THREE MONTHS!?!?!!

/tipoftheiceberg

Panag · May 7, 2003, 12:03

hi ,

what happens if the prez for one or the other reason decides not to agree with a minister , poll , or law , ..

yet he does it in the intrest of the game , and ( possibly ) later on its proven he did right , ....

have a nice day

Thud · May 7, 2003, 15:49

Yeah, I thought that it might be a little excessive, Mwia, but I was in keeping with the Court cycle. (which I disagreed with) I would actually rather have it every one or two months.

Aidun · May 7, 2003, 16:04

It would be fun to start with monarchy and get a constitutional crisis halfway: civil disorder, republicans shouting at the palace, demanding the abdication of the king. The symbol of the authoritarian rule of the king: the state prison is being stormed.
But the king does not want to abdicate: republicans, backed by the armed forces, who still demand a large sum of unpaid salary, battle with the royal troops, backed by the monarchists. Finally the republicans win and storm the palace. The king is captured and accused of high treason. The is being executed on the plaza before the palace.

Instead of an autocratic govenment, the nobles choose a new government type: a republic. A council of nine nobles, elected by the nobles that are not in the council governs. None of the council members is responsible for one particular department. All council members are responsible for all departments: cityplanning, production, foreign affairs, and defense.

The chairman, appointed by the council members leads the discussion. He posts threads in which proposals on every department can be made and argued, about which tha council members vote in the turnchat.

Each of the council member represents a groop of nobles. He has to keep those nobles voting for him so that he can take part in the discussions and decisionmaking of the council.

Parties can play an active role in this system. Their main goal is to get as many representatives in the executive council as possible and heavy debates between parties should occur daily between the parties because all is up to discussion. There is not a minister who decides what the policy on a department will be and whether what strategy is being used in war, it is the council that decides.

On important decisions like war, the council can decide to let all the nobles speak.

What do you think about this democratic concept? Quite different from the system we used in the former democracy game. Its a bit like indirect Athenian democracy: no ministers, but also not the entire population is ruling the state so that it is still workable.

Aidun

Aidun · May 7, 2003, 16:10

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
The King is elected for THREE MONTHS!?!?!!

Be glad it is only three months. Normally a king rules until he decides, or his body decides to stop with it, now he is bound to three months.

Aidun

Octavian X · May 8, 2003, 19:49

If anyone is still curious, I've begun work reformatting the consitution. The html file in this zip file should look much nicer than the current one.

DAVOUT · May 9, 2003, 08:02

Aidun,

You described the Comité de Salut Public.

Could be fun ... with a guillotine on the Plaza

:

Panag · May 9, 2003, 14:22

hi ,

a Q for the law makers , something to give thoughts , ....

what happens if in a poll 50% of the people choose option one , yet an other option get 49.9% , .... do we repoll or not , ....

something that came up today during an intresting observation , ......

in democratic views those 49.9 cant be ignored , ....

have a nice day

Panag · May 9, 2003, 14:36

hi ,

take a look at this , it can be found here > This is a link to the CFC constitution:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=48615

thanks to togas for the link

here it is ;

Please do not post in this thread.

The Constitution of Fanatikou

Article A. All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of Fanatikou. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.

Article B. Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws and the Code of Standards. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article and no standards shall be used that conflict with a law or an article.

Article C. The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.

Article D. The Executive Branch is headed by the President, who shall be the designated player of the game. Directly below the President shall be the Domestic and Foreign Affairs Leaders. The Science and Military Leader shall report directly to the Domestic Leader, and the Culture and Trade Leaders shall report to the Foreign Affairs Leader. Each of these leaders will be generally responsible for the items found under the respective Advisor in the Civilization III game and esoteric aspects that fall under their department name.

Article E. The Legislative Branch shall consist of the Congress and the Senate. The Congress will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry. The Senate shall be formed of the Provincial Governors, who shall be responsible for the care, management and use of the cities and lands of a province.

Article F. The Judicial Branch will be formed of three leaders, one who is tasked with upholding the laws (Judge Advocate), one who is tasked with defending the citizenry (Public Defender) and headed by the Chief Justice. It shall be the main responsibility of the Judiciary to admit citizens into the game who shall have joined after February 16, 2003.

Article G. All offices will be filled via election with terms lasting according to a fixed schedule based on game years. Terms shall be divided into 10 equal terms of 45 turns each and place elections accordingly.

Article H. It is unlawful to play through actions, move troops, make deals or take any other action that would change the state of the playing game from that of the saved game.
Exception: The structure of peace renegotiation treaties requires an action to be taken to view the bargaining possibilities. Specifically, once the deal is broached it must result in a new deal or a declaration of war. Once the bargaining possibilities have been noted the altered game must be immediately closed without saving. Further activity in the altered game is not allowed.

Article I. The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the Congress). A majority of the Congress shall be required to amend the Constitution.

Article J. Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

Article K. The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatikou can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

Article L. Both President and Foreign Affairs Leader are de-facto ambassadors. Regular Ambassadors are elected each term. Ambassadors shall only be chosen when Fanatikou has made in-game contact with a rival civilization.

Article M. In the event the positions of Domestic, Foreign Affairs, or any Judicial position becomes vacant, the President shall apoint a new leader to fill the vacant position.
In the event the military, science, or any governorship position becomes vacant, the Domestic Leader shall apoint a new leader to fill the vacant position.
In the event the culture, trade, or any Ambassador position becomes vacant, the Foreign Affairs Leader shall appoint a new leader to fill the vacant position.
In the event the President vacates his/her position, the domestic leader shall become President, and shall appoint a new leader to be domestic leader.
All appointments must be approved by the Council.
In the event any leader takes a temporary leave of absence, he shall appoint a pro-tempore official to fill that position until the leader shall return.

have a nice day

and this is the polling and remarks page > http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=45355

Aidun · May 9, 2003, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Aidun,

You described the Comité de Salut Public.

Could be fun ... with a guillotine on the Plaza

:

A guillotine. It wasn't very difficult to see the link with the French Revolution. Fun, but it costs too much blood, and we cannot afford big bloodshed and massmurder.

I didn't know I described the Comité de Salut Publique (I guess thet is the French spelling)?

But to return to the point I was making. I really think such a system would be great fun. I have seen the warmongers rise again after their silent death in C3DG 1, but where is the big competition? I don't see it anywhere, no riots and mass demonstrations against the government like in the time of the proposal of the abolition of the slavery in C3DG 1.

UnOrthO, what do you think of it? You told me at the end of the last game that you wanted a lot of competition in the new game? Come and get it!

Aidun