Which country is worse? - Page 2

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 21:51

Well.... At least progress is being made. I'll believe as soon as a noncommunist party member gets any say in anything important. Still, I'm glade the red Chinese no longer think it is A.O.K. to starve tens of millions of people to death. Great leap backwards is more like it.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 22:27

Huh? Some people's perception of China is about 10-20 years out of date. I suggest these people take a stroll around Beijing and Shanghai, instead of talking about it to the people who already have.

If China becomes a superpower, it can no more afford to destabilize the world than America can now. Hence China is no more a threat to world peace than America is. Of course, if you're asking about the biggest threat to American hegemony, then that is probably China. Of that I am proud.

Spiffor · May 2, 2003, 22:50

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Huh? Some people's perception of China is about 10-20 years out of date. I suggest these people take a stroll around Beijing and Shanghai, instead of talking about it to the people who already have.

If China becomes a superpower, it can no more afford to destabilize the world than America can now. Hence China is no more a threat to world peace than America is. Of course, if you're asking about the biggest threat to American hegemony, then that is probably China. Of that I am proud.

Ran : I don't doubt China has changed mucho since Deng came to power. The time of massive starvations and wanton massacres of the population belongs to the past, and that's great. But China still executes many more people (in proportion too) than the US, and regions are demanded to provide a ratio for death penalties. The one-child policy forces poor women to abort by millions, and the public opposition to the government is harshly punished, whether with exile, liaogai, or death.

China is not the monster regime it was under Mao, but still remains a real authoritarian place. A heaven when compared to the delirious North Korea, but not a really likable place by western standards.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 22:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor

Ran : I don't doubt China has changed mucho since Deng came to power. The time of massive starvations and wanton massacres of the population belongs to the past, and that's great. But China still executes many more people (in proportion too) than the US, and regions are demanded to provide a ratio for death penalties. The one-child policy forces poor women to abort by millions, and the public opposition to the government is harshly punished, whether with exile, liaogai, or death.

China is not the monster regime it was under Mao, but still remains a real authoritarian place. A heaven when compared to the delirious North Korea, but not a really likable place by western standards.

Well yes. Of course, many problems exist in China. We are still trying to sort many of them out without creating more.

I would disagree with you on the one-child policy, but then, that would belong in another thread. (As for the quota on death penalties: do you have a source?)

edit

Heck, I'm going to explain my viewpoint on the one-child policy whether or not that leads this thread astray.

The implementation of this policy may be draconian. But the consequences of not implementing this are even more horrendous. China is already overflowing with surplus labor, which is probably the single biggest threat to this country's stability and development. Without draconian population controls, China would already have exploded itself over the entire region.

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 23:02

Amen brother...

(refering to spiffor)

Spiffor · May 2, 2003, 23:02

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
(As for the quota on death penalties: do you have a source?)

I have read this some years ago in a French newspaper. Basically, it meant that minor offenses could be punished by death in some provinces (what's the chinese name for provinces ?) where there were too few major offenses. The journalist took the example of a pig thief that has been condemned to death.

There are also (not-journalistic) rumors that the family of the condemned has to pay for the bullet. Don't know if they are an urban legend or not though.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 23:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor

I have read this some years ago in a French newspaper. Basically, it meant that minor offenses could be punished by death in some provinces (what's the chinese name for provinces ?) where there were too few major offenses. The journalist took the example of a pig thief that has been condemned to death.

Definitely the first time I'm hearing about this.

And i've edited the one-child policy in in the thread above.

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 23:10

I do hope China can peacefully transform itself though this would be the first time in its five thousand year history.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 23:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
I do hope China can peacefully transform itself though this would be the first time in its five thousand year history.

Of course. If Europe can arrive at a common currency and North America can rule the world, I don't see why anything is impossible.

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 23:15

fair enough

Firelad · May 2, 2003, 23:16

I read someplace that Texas has more executions than China in proportion to population. No like though so don't trust me

Although I WOULD rather live in Texas than in China, definitely. Methinks. Hm.

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 23:17

Texas is a fine place to live if you don't murder any one. If you do then they'll put you in a casket.

Kuciwalker · May 2, 2003, 23:24

The US has millions of shootings each year? Excuse me, the leading cause of death in the US is heart disease, which IIRC kills 400,000 a year. Plus, how could a country of about 250 million people support MILLIONS of deaths by guns alone every year?

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 23:29

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
The US has millions of shootings each year? Excuse me, the leading cause of death in the US is heart disease, which IIRC kills 400,000 a year. Plus, how could a country of about 250 million people support MILLIONS of deaths by guns alone every year?

He's deliberately saying that it's a ridiculous generalization - one that is, incidentally, held by many people living in the Far East, not just China.

His point is that, in the same way, there are many strange, often illogical generalizations held by some westerners about China.

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 23:32

Ranskaldan: You must admite that everything I have said about communist China (vs Taiwan) has been completely factual. I have not made up a single thing.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
Ranskaldan: You must admite that everything I have said about communist China (vs Taiwan) has been completely factual. I have not made up a single thing.

If we take out UR's use of "millions", then everything he said has been as factual as yours.

Of course, what happened was that he expanded these facts on purpose so that they seemed like the ONLY things America manages to do - that's why it's called generalizations. The same goes for all your statements.

Oerdin · May 2, 2003, 23:43

Quote:

Oh, I don't know. Is this the same as the one that has millions of shootings a year, slaps funny labels on other countries, invades other countries willy-nilly, props up blood-thirsty dictators, profiles miniorities at home, ignores international laws, spies on everybody else, violates the Geneva Convention blatantly, got a president who snotted coke, evaded personal responsibilities, and stole an election, and has the biggest military budget in the world? Did I mention they have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, and refused to ban landmines?

Taking out the millions of shooting thing we still have "invades other countries willy-nilly" which is patiently untrue. Props up blood thirsty dictators hasn't happened since the end of the cold war (though this depends on the definition of blood thirsty dictator) and even then it was only to fight the Soviets. Ignores international laws is verifiably untrue at least as far as the Iraq incidient he constinently harps on as is violating the Geneva convention (even the red cross signed off on Gitmo). Lastly, can you please show me one itty-bitty peace of reputable evidience that Bush ever did coke?

Case closed. You lose.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 23:48

Nice try.

I see that you do not dispute the factual side of most of UR's statements - only the justifications behind them. For example - America invades countries, but not "willy-nilly". America props up dictators - for self-protection reasons. America violates Geneva - but wait, it doesn't because the Red Cross hasn't dared to say anything. And as for Bush doing coke - yah whatever, I'll let you guys sort out the fine points of Bush's personal life.

Well if then, that's just too easy. You don't think China did all those things for fun do you? There are reasons and justifications behind those too. We can spend the rest of the week arguing about those if you want.

ranskaldan · May 2, 2003, 23:51

Let's see.

Quote:

Millions of forced abortions per year, they run over peaceful protesters with tanks, you can be executed for starting your own political party, all reporters must agree to have state censors review their work, and they just happen to have the fastest growing military budget of any major state. Did I mention they have nukes?

Millions of abortions - yah, as if the alternative (overcrowding and societal collapse) happens to be better.
Runs over peaceful protestors - It happened once. Most other countries have done similar things. And the justification here is continued societal stability. Call me evil - I consider this to be on an equal moral level as supporting bloody dictatorships against the Soviets, whatever that moral level is.
All reporters must agree to etc etc - Most countries have censorship to some degree. In fact, most sources of media probably impose selfcensorship in order to avoid offending its viewers. For example, if you try to praise America on the Chinese media, you would be hounded by your viewers, not your government.
Fastest growing military budget - we need to defend ourselves against belligerents too
Nukes - look who's talking.

there we go. I have applied the same methods on your arguments as you have on UR's. Have fun.

Tingkai · May 3, 2003, 00:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
Face it UR. You live in an extrodinarially repressive country which is run by a regime who wouldn't bat an eyelash about killing millions of your countrymen if they got out of line.

Actually, Urban Ranger and I in a country that provides a lot of the democratic freedoms that are available in the US: a free press, freedom of speech and religion, no forced abortion, and an established rule of law. All of these freedoms exist in China, albeit not everywhere.

And unlike the US, the China where UR and I live does not have the death penalty, it has an extremely low crime rate, and it has universal health care. Unfortunately, just like the US, it has a crappy education system.

As for killing millions of Chinese citizens, the government where UR and I live is too incompetent to know how to do it, although I suspect they wouldn't have any qualms about doing it.

And if you still haven't figured it out, UR and I live in People's Republic of China's city of Hong Kong.

Imran Siddiqui · May 3, 2003, 00:07

Quote:

The point that many people will vote for the US, even if they don't believe it, just to be a smart-ass?

Yep, seems like it

.

Though at least it is losing to NKorea!

Tingkai · May 3, 2003, 00:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

The point that many people will vote for the US, even if they don't believe it, just to be a smart-ass?

Yep, seems like it

.

Though at least it is losing to NKorea!

We can soon fix that.

ranskaldan · May 3, 2003, 00:12

The putting of the "

" next to "USA" is a bad, bad choice - it draws attention. My vote would have gone to North Korea otherwise.

The Mad Monk · May 3, 2003, 00:17

Yeah, but that's all right, since everyone knows it's the comedy choice.

SlowwHand · May 3, 2003, 00:37

USA. Bunch of dumbshits.

Many good candidates omitted.
Somalia, a prime example.
Almost any place in Africa, actually.
Central America is pretty dicey living conditions.

And to say nothing of Canada.

Hot Mustard · May 3, 2003, 01:07

Well, since the question says country, not government, I have to go with the US.

The difference being that in most of the other options, it is the governments which totalitarian and oppressive, and in the US (and Canada too, just to a lesser extent), it is the corporate world and agenda. The brainwashing and the brainwashers may be different, but just as potent, if not more so. I can't think of a thing in US society that can't be swayed by the almighty dollar.

Frozzy · May 3, 2003, 02:23

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Well, the 'peaceful protestors with tanks' bit says China to me.

Of course you never hear about the protests in North Korea.

For the education of the masses:

http://1stopkorea.com/nk-trip1.htm

Very Very Good.

Ted Striker · May 3, 2003, 02:28

USA! USA! USA!

Ted Striker · May 3, 2003, 02:32

.

sprucemoose3311 · May 3, 2003, 02:45

Korea is the most oppressive on the list but China is te biggest world threat.

The point i want add is: Geneva convention? International treaties? Do some research to see what the US has signed, has not signed but supports, etc. ... also for fun look up the history of the first 15 years of the relationship of the UN and the US