Stop

[realpolitic]

There are good ways of running a country and bad ways, both sides (at least in America) seem to be more interested in finger pointing and emotional attachment to every issue, than using politics to make a better society. Contrast this with:


When a Liberal and Conservative get in a car, and one turns the key, they are usually in agreeement on whether the car starts or not, why can't politics be the same? Political discussions are based on differences, but yet both sides do have shared interests.

Here is my attempt to come up with minimalist principles:

Around 1999, Pat Buchanann said Hitler wasn't all that bad, and left and right were outraged.Then I came up with some Universal Truths that 99% of Americans agree on:
1)Hitler was bad
2)Slavery was bad
3)Free Speech is good

This may not seem like much, but computers are built on
0's 1's and these operations: AND,OR,NOT

why can't we build on our common agreements -
especially #3. Most Liberals and Conservatives seem to accept every position their political persuasion has without an openess to other views.I've learned the hard way that some of the institutions of the left are also corrupt, but I get nasty looks when I say that to my liberal friends. As Billy Joel said, "Honestly is such a lonely word." Why can't there be a technology of social ideas be developed through reason instead of stuck in the blame game?

[Giancarlo]

Let me say one thing: If you put liberals and conservatives in a room and lock the door, you will hear fighting (with the fists) and people trying to strangle each other...

That is called partisan politics.

[realpolitic]

Fez, exactly why everything is so messed up.

[monolith94]

not necessarily...

[yago]

I have developped my own example for my country.

A left-wing and a right-wing stand in front the men's room. But both try to let the other one not in, because the expect (and rightly so) that as soon one is in, he will slam the door shut and lock it. Then laugh. So, both stand outside of the Men's room and p in their trousers.

The problem is, having only "liberal" or "conservative" is a bad idea. If their would be more groups of opinion, they wouldn't start to hate eachother so much. If their would be 12 parties, all had a lot more possibilities do agree or disagree.

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by realpolitic
why can't we build on our common agreements

'Cause they're wrong and we're right. Why should we concede our principles to evil?

[Q Classic]

parties are the death of democracy.

[Buck Birdseed]

Far from it. Parties are the start of proper democracy, with a real choice of ideology. In a non-party system only wishy-washy centrists are ever elected...

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by Fez
Let me say one thing: If you put liberals and conservatives in a room and lock the door, you will hear fighting (with the fists) and people trying to strangle each other...

That is called partisan politics.

Fez, some of my best friends are leftists. Some people who I have really dislked have been rightists. It is foolish to judge a person on the basis of being a liberal or a conservative.

[Kirnwaffen]

Why can't there be a technology of social ideas be developed through reason instead of stuck in the blame game?

The basic reason lies in the foundation of argumentation. Basically, you and I could, theoretically, build two completely opposite arguments, and each could be considered equally good.

Why is this? Essentially because the value of any argument is in the eye of the beholder. What I hold to be a valid premise may differ significantly from your view. Also, because there are so many different angles from which to argue a given point, we could even have equally valid arguments with different conclusions, and then be forced to decide which angle has greater implications.

Just my $0.02.

[Buck Birdseed]

More than that, the very language and thought-patterns we use are likely to be way different. We can't see the other person's argument because to them, each central concept means something else in a purely emotional way.

[Nubclear]

The reason that the two parties end up bickering is because some selfish bastard calls the other side "selfish bastards" and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards and because of honor the other side has to call the other side selfish bastards 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Do you understand now?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


Fez, some of my best friends are leftists. Some people who I have really dislked have been rightists. It is foolish to judge a person on the basis of being a liberal or a conservative.

I was talking about political partisans.. I wasn't generalizing.

[Nubclear]

Which is why Poly debate rarely ever go anywhere. People get so caught up in "I cant be wrong or Ill look bad!" that they can't think rationally and even when they can, they intentionally argue the wrong cause so that they dont lose any honor.

[yago]

Far from it. Parties are the start of proper democracy, with a real choice of ideology. In a non-party system only wishy-washy centrists are ever elected...

No wonder are politicans usually recruited from the scum of the earth. It's the electors fault.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi

Fez, some of my best friends are leftists. Some people who I have really dislked have been rightists. It is foolish to judge a person on the basis of being a liberal or a conservative.

Originally posted by Fez

I was talking about political partisans.. I wasn't generalizing.

I share a house with a conservative Republican. We talk about politics, and we've never killed each other. --Yet.

[Q Classic]

Far from it. Parties are the start of proper democracy, with a real choice of ideology. In a non-party system only wishy-washy centrists are ever elected...

and in party-based systems, you have parties bought and sold like commodities by corporations, reckless pandering to specific voting blocs, politicians whoring themselves out just to get that one extra percentage point, and no real substantive debate on issues, solutions, and problems.

[Proteus_MST]

Maybe a truely democratic System like in Switzerland would be worth a try.

Important issues in Switzerland are not decided by any party but directly voted for or against by the Population.

[Promethus]

"Imagine I am an idiot. Now imagine I am a Congressman. But I repeat myself."

Mark Twain

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Maybe a truely democratic System like in Switzerland would be worth a try.

Important issues in Switzerland are not decided by any party but directly voted for or against by the Population.

That might work in a country like Switzerland but not in the US.

[Imran Siddiqui]

'Cause they're wrong and we're right. Why should we concede our principles to evil?

Exactly!



Though 'wishy-washy' centrists are never a bad thing .

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
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Do you understand now?

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Which is why Poly debate rarely ever go anywhere. People get so caught up in "I cant be wrong or Ill look bad!" that they can't think rationally and even when they can, they intentionally argue the wrong cause so that they dont lose any honor.

I agree with you, provided that you admit that you've done that before.

Another principle we can agree on: Everyone, including yourself, is a hypocrite.

Loinburger, you know you quoted that just to be annoying.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Fez

That might work in a country like Switzerland but not in the US.

Yes, you could be right.

On the one Hand it could be that size matters.

Switzerland is a relative small country, so it would be much easier to conduct a nationwide poll.
The larger the nation the greater the efforts that have to be made to conduct the poll (and therefore the costs) and the greater are the chances that errors happen (as also seen in the last Elections in USA )

On the other Hand I assume that in USA the gap between poor and good educated people could be greater in USA than in Switzerland.
And it of course will be important for people to have a good education so they can make an informed choice in the nationwide polls.


Maybe sucn a direct Democracy would be possible for countries like Germany or Spanin though (with a Populationsize of just 40 and 80 Million compared to the 280 Million Inhabitants of the USA)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Partisan politics is inevitable, because parties are inevitable in large, complex, diverse societies. Were we to abolish all parties tomorrow -- but not outlaw them -- they would just form all over again, as like-minded people banded together to help elect people who think as theey do and defeat people who think differently. That's all a party is.

Partisan politics is good when the parties have legitimately different visions of how a society should be governed. This leads to a healthy public debate about the direction of the society and the shape and value of its institutions.

Partisan politics is bad when the parties are indistinguishable from each other and must create a false sense of difference in order to justify their grabs at power.

Partisan politics is thus bad in the US right now, for reasons just explained.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
(...)
Do you understand now?

No, you selfish bastard!