What separates a Mac from a PC?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
ag, the fact that i have to press a keyboard key and then click--using two hands-- is a negative aspect of it when instead all i have to do is use a different finger on the one hand that is controlling the mouse.

multibutton mice are one thing i find far superior about non-ppc systems. at least you can buy one of those and put it on a mac.

As I said, you don't have to control click. Most of that can be avoided by judicious use of the interface, or you can click and hold and it does the same thing.

As far as I know most multibutton mice are plug and play on OS X. The only reason I'd consider getting one is for a scroll wheel and browser navigation buttons.


*edit* Actually the only thing that would compel me to buy a PC is Lo-mac, if it turns out to be as good as it looks.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Juggernaut
Mac has way superior fonts.

Yeah, you should try writing in Classical Greek on Windows = or worse, trying to read it.

[Sava]

I don't have any user-problems with Windows. Again, I'll use your quote Agathon:

If you learn how to use the system

Agathon, be honest. In order to do anything with a Mac, you need a hand on the keyboard and a hand on the mouse.

[Drake Tungsten]

Writing in Japanese on a Mac is far easier as well. In most programs, Japanese support is available right from the get go. The only program I've had so far that makes you jump through hoops to enable Japanese text support is Microsoft Office. Imagine that.

BTW, Office is also the program that installed some spyware on my Mac that has horribly slowed down the startup procedure. Thanks, MS.

[monolith94]

Why would you ever want to use a computer with only one hand???

Besides, I'm using a three button mouse on my mac right now.

[Sava]

Because Japanese language support is a deal-breaker when I shop for PC's...

[Sava]

Originally posted by monolith94
Why would you ever want to use a computer with only one hand???

Besides, I'm using a three button mouse on my mac right now.

Hello??? When I'm watching pr0n... I need a free hand.

[Drake Tungsten]

Agathon, be honest. In order to do anything with a Mac, you need a hand on the keyboard and a hand on the mouse.

Bullshit. You can do almost everything with the mouse, as Ag said. The only reason to use key commands is that they are quicker.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sava
I don't have any user-problems with Windows. Again, I'll use your quote Agathon:

That's fair enough. In a large part it comes down to what you are used to. I used to be a Windows user (I still think 3.1 was pretty good) but I got sick of the crashes and the other annoyances. The folks at work gave me a Power PC G3 and I found I worked a lot better on it.

Agathon, be honest. In order to do anything with a Mac, you need a hand on the keyboard and a hand on the mouse.

I don't. I rarely use the keyboard. About the most I ever use is holding down the "Apple" key and clicking for a couple of things. But I either have the interface configured so that I don't need to or I click and hold.

About the only place where the one button mouse can be a problem is web browsing.

[Sava]

Sorry, Drake, those half-second and second delays add up. If you're on the computer every day for a year doing something, seconds add up to lost days and lost productivity. I know I'll never convince you Mac-fanboys, but I've used both systems a lot and PC's are simply better. Sorry.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
This is actually worse since it takes up more space than it needs to. The toolbar pertains to the selected window. It is easy to see and use. That is unless you use two mice at once - but who does that?

Nonsense, I can click the "File" menu for another window. On the Mac, I'd need to click on the window, move the mouse up to the top corner of the screen, select file. That's not intuitive (attach the controls to the window they control!), and it's not as functional. It's just what Mac users are used to, but if you talk to any GUI design experts they'll tell you it's a very bad idea, psychologically speaking.

Windows is a mess, there's cr@p everywhere and that stupid registry causes untold problems, or so my Windows using friends tell me. I'd rather die than go back to it.

Well, suit yourself, but Windows XP > OS X. The Registry certainly does not cause "untold problems", your friends either don't know what they're talking about, or you don't, or both.

The processor speed is about the only decent thing PC's have going for them, and that's largely Motorola's fault for messing about. It's a temporary problem.

The processor speed is the only thing the PCs have going for them? How about RAM? The Mac is about 3 years behind the PC in the RAM department.

System bus design -- also about 3 years behind the PC.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sava
Because Japanese language support is a deal-breaker when I shop for PC's...

Actually the language support is really good if you are like me and want to browse (and type) in different languages.

I use the Thesaurus Linguae Graeci a lot and I also read a bit of German (on old systems it doesn't render all the letters properly)

Take the example of my brother - he speaks half a dozen languages fluently and about another half a dozen tolerably well - he is the sort of guy who wants hyper language support.

[Sava]

You Mac-guys know you are ****ed when both Asher and I agree on something.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Nonsense, I can click the "File" menu for another window. On the Mac, I'd need to click on the window, move the mouse up to the top corner of the screen, select file. That's not intuitive (attach the controls to the window they control!), and it's not as functional. It's just what Mac users are used to, but if you talk to any GUI design experts they'll tell you it's a very bad idea, psychologically speaking.

There is some disagreement about this. I've seen it go both ways. I find that on the mac I don't use the toolbar very much anyway. I did use it a lot more when I used Windows, but not now.

Well, suit yourself, but Windows XP > OS X. The Registry certainly does not cause "untold problems", your friends either don't know what they're talking about, or you don't, or both.

I can't stand XP and I can't see any of these supposed "merits" you are talking about. It's ugly and has poor font support for what I want to do.

The processor speed is the only thing the PCs have going for them? How about RAM? The Mac is about 3 years behind the PC in the RAM department.

It works just fine. I played on a new PC a while ago and I couldn't detect much difference.

[Drake Tungsten]

You Mac-guys know you are ****ed when both Asher and I agree on something.

[Q Classic]

As I said, you don't have to control click. Most of that can be avoided by judicious use of the interface, or you can click and hold and it does the same thing.

why click and hold for two seconds when you can just tap the right mouse button? or ctrl and tap with the one mouse button? far quicker, and more efficient.
why muck around the interface when you can right click in just one second? or ctrl and tap with just one mouse button?

usb mice are plug and play in osx, and for that, i'm glad. it still irritates me, however, that they don't come default with macs.

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as for those apple design things? let's not forget the disaster that was that "cutsey" circle mice that came with the first series of imacs.
i also can't abide by the fact that the imacs and emacs, although designed for non-tinkerers, can't really be upgraded. i find that a reprehensible design flaw, and something which only damages a computer's utility.

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on the other hand, macs do have their uses. i tend to like them for video and sound editing (logic and peak are awfully nice, and they don't come for windows; final cut pro is a dream to work with~).

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stability is bunk. although i can use a system without having it crash on me, when someone tells me their system is rock-solid, i enjoy trying to make it crash~ a friend of mine mentioned that osx was crashproof--and about a minute later i forced a reboot because finder kept crashing. my windows xp installation is just as rock-solid; i've gone two to three weeks without having to reboot it.

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osx is almost idiotproof, while windows is not. the one problem with mac os is that most users don't realize that to close the program completely, you have to make sure it doesn't show up in the menubar at the top--and most people don't do that. on the other hand, in windows, it's slightly more intuitive: just click the x button in the upper right enough, and the program is, by and large, closed entirely.

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in conclusion, macs are easier to use for beginners, and fairly powerful--but it shines mainly in video and sound editing. windows has now become as easy to use for beginners, and is just as powerful, if not a little more (simply because of its lower price, greater selection of peripherals, and because it's a lot easier to chuck it and replace it with linux or other alternative oses), and it really shines in gaming.

all this macs are better than wintel pcs is absolutely silly. buy whatever computer you can afford and are comfortable with. as for me, i'd want a windows/linux x86 system with an apple laptop.

if i could afford it.

[Sava]

OS/X crashes are much worse than Windows crashes. I've had Zip disks erased by OS/X crashes before.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
I can't stand XP and I can't see any of these supposed "merits" you are talking about. It's ugly and has poor font support for what I want to do.

If you think it's ugly, have you considered themeing it with the thousands of XML-based themes out there? Or perhaps even creating your own with the available theme-builders?

I also don't understand the poor font support. Apple's font anti-aliasing is licensed from MS Research and the core fonts are actually MS TTF.

Are you referring to international support, in which case I have no idea but from what I've seen Windows works fine?

It works just fine. I played on a new PC a while ago and I couldn't detect much difference.

It's fine if all you do is internet & Word, etc.

Try doing encoding, gaming, 3D work, even Photoshop...there's a big difference.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sava
Sorry, Drake, those half-second and second delays add up. If you're on the computer every day for a year doing something, seconds add up to lost days and lost productivity. I know I'll never convince you Mac-fanboys, but I've used both systems a lot and PC's are simply better. Sorry.

Again, I'll point out to you that I find using the mac to be much quicker - that's why I became a mac user. In some degree it depends what you are used to and the way you work.

Is there some magical reason why people shouldn't use the computers that they like and find easier to use and should be compelled to use computers they don't like and find to be a pain in the neck?

That's roughly what this discussion boils down to.

[Asher]

Mac users will continue to use Macs and insist they're well worth the (insane) price and limited software selection and awkward interface (although they're all used to it so they'd never admit to it being awkward) and general prettyness at the expense of even more CPU cycles.

The arguments do get pointless. PCs are more economical, let you do more stuff, and faster. Macs are different, and get the job done for lots of people albeit at a higher price.

*shrug*

[Q Classic]

that's all this discussion boils down to. it's a pissing contest between people who love macs and people who love windows.

i couldn't give a sh it about which one you guys think are better.

i love linux, windows, and osx. i use them all comfortably. each one has its strengths, and weaknesses. if i could afford it, i'd have two computers, one capable of the first two, and the latter capable of osx.

as for international support, i use japanese, german, and korean alongside english--and never have i had trouble with my windows setup. it's easy to click on the small button i have on my taskbar to switch between the input methods.

[Sava]

That's the jist of my response Agy-poo...

IMO, and for my uses, PC's are better.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

If you think it's ugly, have you considered themeing it with the thousands of XML-based themes out there? Or perhaps even creating your own with the available theme-builders?

Alright, I confess - I hate the taskbar and the start menu.

I also don't understand the poor font support. Apple's font anti-aliasing is licensed from MS Research and the core fonts are actually MS TTF.

As far as I know XP uses a different system than OS X. I have to say I found Classical Greek harder to read on XP, but that may well have been the particular font used. It reads beautifully on OS X.

The real annoyance is that Office X doesn't seem to have as good font support as the rest of the X system (this is a pain when I want to change keyboards for typing greek). Other than that Office X is a pretty good suite and MS is to be commended for it (I like MS for the mac - they are just another software company to us mac users and they tend to work pretty hard for our money).

Are you referring to international support, in which case I have no idea but from what I've seen Windows works fine?

Sava was saying that he didn't care about Asian languages. I was just pointing out that many people do. My own interest is in having a computer display classical greek properly. If you've ever seen a classical greek text, you will know why.

It's fine if all you do is internet & Word, etc.

Try doing encoding, gaming, 3D work, even Photoshop...there's a big difference.

Presumably, if I wanted to do all that stuff I'd buy a Power Mac. The imac isn't really designed for the hard out photoshopping stuff.

Other than Civ and Falcon 4 I don't play a lot of games (I don't have the time), but even my old imac does a good job with these.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher
Mac users will continue to use Macs and insist they're well worth the (insane) price and limited software selection and awkward interface (although they're all used to it so they'd never admit to it being awkward) and general prettyness at the expense of even more CPU cycles.

Unless you are building your own the prices aren't that much different. If there is a difference it is that macs are rarely heavily discounted.

And again, there is nothing awkward about it if you can use it properly.

The arguments do get pointless. PCs are more economical, let you do more stuff, and faster. Macs are different, and get the job done for lots of people albeit at a higher price.

One could say the same about a piece of Jap cr@p versus a BMW.

[Q Classic]

which is precisely why i'll always favor the jap car.

[Willem]

Originally posted by monolith94
"I also prefer having multiple mouse buttons, Macs only have one. IMO it's much more convenient than using a combination of keyboard/mouse commands."

$20 for a multi button mouse.

First I've heard of it. How well is it supported within programs?

[Q Classic]

fairly well. the right mouse button functions as if you've already pressed the ctrl key.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Sava
OS/X crashes are much worse than Windows crashes. I've had Zip disks erased by OS/X crashes before.

That's weird. I've had precisely one kernel panic since I started using X, and that was in 10.0.3.

Other than that I've never had a crash.

And as for

BTW, I got a Nomad Zen today...about half the price of an iPod, more features, longer battery life, supports WMA, 20GB

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The ipods have moved on a lot since this came out.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sava

Hello??? When I'm watching pr0n... I need a free hand.

Hmmm, must be a small one. I need both.

[faded glory]

IMO your average Mac handles 3d applications (CAD programs etc..) way better than your average PC. OS 9/x is rock stable compared to windows running intensive applications.

That said. I still think mac's are a joke. . Maybe cause i dont understand them