The quest for REAL individualism (isn't as hard as you might think)

[orange]

Why is it that everyone feels the need to identify themselves in a group, a disorder, a religion, a phenomenon, a genre of music, a skin colour, a sexual preference, a style of dress, etc. Why does everyone seem to participate in hive mentality within these groups?

I have a lot of friends from a lot of different circles, and I refuse to 'associate' with any of these circles, not out of an objection to these groups, but because I really don't see the need and feel like making myself a part of any of these groups cuts off the others.

"I am Emo. I take shitty digital photography. I cry because it gets me pussy."

Some of my friends define themselves by their friends, or the fact that they are ADD, or that they are a Christian, or that they were sexually abused as a child, or that they listen to Emo, or that they're black, or that they're bisexual, or that they shop at Abercrombie and Fitch...I don't understand it. Is there that large of a need to be accepted that you must fill out an index card of who you are based on these superficialities?

What is it with guys going around 'trying' to be deep? Isn't writing pessimistic poetry and songs something that went out in high school? What's with the flowerly language? Why use 10 words where 4 will do? You're 19 years old and live in splendor; you have no reason to proclaim that the world is an awful bastion of suffering and greif.

"You are not your Khakis"

The phrase "I don't have anything to do on a Saturday night" does not make you a loser. There are 52 Saturday nights in a year, and chances are one or two of them won't be spent seeing a movie going to a club or partying with your friends. Read a book, browse the net, go for a walk, it doesn't matter. You do not need the company of others to define what your status in society is.

Belonging to a black sorority does not make you Diverse. Obtaining sexual pleasure from a mate of either gender does not make you open-minded.

"lol, i said yeah i think he likes artsy girls... she said, 'i can be an artsy girl'"

Not drinking and not doing drugs does not make you special. Adding the letter 'x' to everything you say do think or shit does not make you a better person. Nor deep. Nor attractive. No one cares.

Live Journals. If you want to ***** about your friends, do it to their face. They're going to read it anyway. Then they're going to ***** about it in theirs. Why not cut out the middleman? What's the point? Current Mood - Pissed off. (insert appropriate animated gif here) Current Music - the grinding of my teeth.

"I am a bourgeois pedestrian. I have no disorder, I have no disease, I have no cross to bear. I am normal.

Creating drama should not be a respectable way to keep friends, but it works surprisingly well. When there isn't enough attention being cast in your direction, make up some bullshit. He-said she-saids work great in this capacity. Even better, start ****ing her boyfriend. That'll do it. When in doubt, find something to ***** about. Someone out there will listen, and your need for attention will be fulfilled. The next time one of your friends makes something up and *****es to you about it, call them on it. In fact, tell them to bugger off. But don't be surprised when this is used against you later, because you were being "insensitive".

If you don't know how to pronounce a word, don't say it. Don't use it in a sentence. Don't even try. Instead, go with the 4 letter synonym you HAVE been taught. It won't make you look less intelligent, I promise. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk. It's simple, really. Just keep your mouth shut, and no one is the wiser. They may assume that you're deep in thought about some theory made up by some guy a million hours ago. But really, you're thinking about sex. Win win.

"Let's be independent together"

Chances are you don't know what it's like to be impoverished, needy, or otherwise void of some necessity. So stop complaining. If I never hear another "I'm starving" or "It's so hot in here" or "I've got so much debt to pay off" it'll be to soon.

Credit Cards are a dangerous thing. Got a scissors handy? Cut them up. You'll thank me later. Always know how much you have, how much you make, how much you owe, and how much you need to determine how much to spend. GAP hoody? You don't need it. Beavis and Butthead on DVD? You don't need it.

"I'm starving, I haven't eaten since lunch!"

Cell Phones. I hate cell phones. Gilligans island theme is your ring? Clever. A hundred thousand other people have it too. You're not unique. Why do you want to be found? Isn't there any sort of pleasure in being unreachable? The world will still spin and the sun will still rise even if you miss a call. Tragic, I know. Get over it.

Enlightenment is not screaming "I love you Dave!" at a Dave Matthews Concert. He can't hear you. Even if he could, he wouldn't care. Do you know why? Because you don't know him. You will never know him. Sit your ass down. You can't dance, and the THC/alcohol combination raging through your blood stream hasn't helped. Railings are not meant to be stood on, they're meant to protect your retarted 16 year old self from staining the concrete red. Find somewhere else to vomit. Know that you paid too much to be here.

"Silence is Golden"

You've got the dreads. You bathe every other day to conserve water. You're a vegan. You vote Green. You're an environmentalist, we get the picture. Explain to me why your Nader/LeDuke bumper sticker is tattooed to the back of an Expedition? Put out that cigarette, and ride a bike.

It's a boat. We're surrounded by water. Water everywhere you can see. You are two feet from the railing, and you decide that the best destination for your saliva is the deck. Twenty-six million gallons of Chesapeake bay, and you choose the deck. We're all very impressed.

"Just be yourself"

lol. brb. lylab. roflmgdfao. ttyl. ttfn. STFU! Internet shorthand is fine, in small doses. The occasional brb and lol do well to speed things up a bit. There's a problem when this novelty evolves. Love ya like a brother? Does that need to be shortened. Do you realize that you'll have to explain it to me anyway? That will take twice as long. Why not just type it out that way in the first place?

The next time I edit a peer's essay and see a '2' or 'u' or 'b', I'm crackin' skulls. They let you graduate high school? Your mom and dad pay $22,000 a year for you to be here. I'm floored.

"but now i have meds for it and its all good"

This is not a cry for attention. This was not an exhibition of deep thought. This was not me asserting that I am an individual. Am I overcritical? Maybe. Egotistical? You bet. Pretentious? I don't give a damn. People need to shut the **** up.

[Dis]

I am an individualist.

I am so dissident I don't even identify with dissidents. lousy no good people who cannot agree with anyone

The only problem I have with that is it is hard to make friends when you don't identify yourself to be part of their group.

[Jon Shafer]

I am Trip.

ph33r

[Az]

Why is it that everyone feels the need to identify themselves in a group, a disorder, a religion, a phenomenon, a genre of music, a skin colour, a sexual preference, a style of dress, etc. Why does everyone seem to participate in hive mentality within these groups?

Because they're humans?

being a part of a group is a basic thing for social animals, esp. highly social animals like humans.



nice rant, though.

[connorkimbro]

interesting article, orange. did you write it?

[Jon Shafer]

In all seriousness, good thread.

I think I'll go ignore the world in a pouting fit in your honor.

[loinburger]

I used to identify myself as a "male," but then I realized that I was really sacrificing my individualism by associating myself with any kind of group whatsoever. So now when I fill out forms, and they have those two little boxes marked "male" and "female" where you're supposed to tell them your gender, I instead write in that space "I am not defined by my gender, so I refuse to associate myself with my gender." My handwriting isn't very good, though, and the area with the check-boxes is always pretty small, so I need to write very small to fit in my statement of individuality, which only makes my handwriting worse, and my individualism winds up being proclaimed as an illegible scrawl that makes the form readers think that I am probably mentally retarded. (I considered appending "I am not defined by my level of mental retardation, so I refuse to associate myself with groups who are defined by their level of mental retardation" to my statement of individuality, but I decided that it really wouldn't remedy the problem. Damn those form makers for restricting my individualism! )

[Guynemer]

"You are all different!"

"WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!"

"You are all individuals!"

"WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!"
"...i'm not..." "shh!"

[Starchild]

According to the teachings of Erich Fromm, the natural state of mankind is individualised freedom in a productive setting. However, this makes us responsible for the consequences of our actions, resulting in a fear of our freedom. Society therefore compensates by having three escape mechanisms for those unwilling to face up to the truth.

Authoritarianism:

The individual is destroyed as a free being by placing his moral choices in the hands of a more powerful entity. The State, God, the boss, etc. Submissive individuals retreat behind such screens as "I wasn't told", "That's not in the rules", "I was just following orders". Assertive individuals become the authority and become trapped in the role. The sadist is no more free than the masochist because an authority figure has to destroy his unique individuality to fit into the role he's gained.

Destructiveness:

Freedom and individuality is lost by destroying that which allows us to be free. Assertive individuals lash out at things around them. They rebel against society's rules and falsely proclaim themselves free while destroying anything that would allow them to be free. Arson, murder, theft are the means of destruction. The Submissive individual destroys themself. Hate, self-loathing, and suicide allow them escape.

Conformity:

Freedom is escaped from and individuality lost by becoming part of something greater. Trends, fads, the latest craze. You're only free to be like everyone else and stepping outside of the narrowly defined group standards (like, omg, a valley girl that likes to shop and listens to punk music and rap? What is her deal?) is harshly punished. By conforming, you lose yourself in the group.

[Kropotkin]

A nice post/thread. Kind of Trainspotting meets fight club without violence, drugs and possibly mental illness.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Why is it that everyone feels the need to identify themselves in a group, a disorder, a religion, a phenomenon, a genre of music, a skin colour, a sexual preference, a style of dress, etc. Why does everyone seem to participate in hive mentality within these groups?

Basically... what Azazel said. People have a natural need to be a part of a group. Asking that question is akin to asking "Why do people want to have sex?" or "Why does everyone feel the need to eat?".

[Dauphin]

Identifying yourself as part of a group is a quicker and easier way to express the type of person you are. Sure its not completely accurate and can often be tarnished by stereotyping, but its still a very simple way of describing the type of person you are to those who have never met you.

[loinburger]

It's also something of a misnomer to call it a hive mentality simply because people are members of a group. I would fully expect a group of people who share a common interest or common disfunction (or whatever) to, well, agree with each other (more or less) with respect to that particular interest/disfunction/whatever. The fact that I like tacos and that my friend Fisty McFecal also likes tacos does not imply that we are a part of some sort of taco hive mind -- it simply means that we have both come to an independent yet mutual appreciation of tacos. Group membership in and of itself does not inhibit individuality -- it's only group membership in which somebody alters their interests/disfunctions/etc. in order to fit into the group that inhibits individuality (e.g. if Fisty McFecal is insane and therefore does not appreciate the finer points of taco consumption, yet professes to being a taco enthusiast in order to join the Taco Lover's Association of America). In other words, most people don't start drinking for the sole purpose of joining Alcoholics Anonymous.

[orange]

interesting article, orange. did you write it?

I don't know how much it is 'i wrote it' or 'it oozed out of my fingertips at 5:00 AM' But yes, it's my work.

I used to identify myself as a "male," but then I realized that I was really sacrificing my individualism by associating myself with any kind of group whatsoever. So now when I fill out forms, and they have those two little boxes marked "male" and "female" where you're supposed to tell them your gender, I instead write in that space "I am not defined by my gender, so I refuse to associate myself with my gender." My handwriting isn't very good, though, and the area with the check-boxes is always pretty small, so I need to write very small to fit in my statement of individuality, which only makes my handwriting worse, and my individualism winds up being proclaimed as an illegible scrawl that makes the form readers think that I am probably mentally retarded. (I considered appending "I am not defined by my level of mental retardation, so I refuse to associate myself with groups who are defined by their level of mental retardation" to my statement of individuality, but I decided that it really wouldn't remedy the problem. Damn those form makers for restricting my individualism! )

By hive mentality, I'm not talking about common interests. I'm talking about manifested common interests to perserve the bonds of the group. Ex: A group of friends likes to hang out, have fun, drink, party, whatever. One friend starts to like a band. Now they all like it. One friend starts to like a new restaraunt. Now they all like it. One friend wants to join a fraternity. Now they all want to join.

This is where individualism takes a backseat to individual interests of a pecking order within a group. No one wants to be left out, so they all keep up with their neighbours. It's all too convenient, and it's happening across the board.

I know very few people anymore who have the ability to REALLY be themselves, even if that means going against the popular opinion. If it means saying "You know, I think Linkin Park sucks ass" to a group of friends who all love Linkin Park, so be it. People don't know how to react to this...they gasp and have an expression which seems to indicate "you mean, you're disagreeing with the rest of us?!?!" Then it gets brought up in a live journal that so and so insulted everyone's taste in music. Grow the **** up.

I'm not even a victim of this, just a witness. It's unreal.

[Az]

Again, why are you surprised by it? Common practice in social animals. You must always remember that we're part animals.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by orange
By hive mentality, I'm not talking about common interests.

Oh, I agree that hive mentalities certainly exist, and they're annoying as hell. However, the opposite mentality ("I'm going to disagree with you just to assert my individuality!") is, if anything, even more annoying. People need to be comfortable enough with their individuality that they don't feel the need to be confrontational with it.

[orange]

agreed

[chequita guevara]

You can call yourself an individual only by ignoring most of what human life is like. We are social animals, like wolves, zebras, dolphins, etc. Our individuality is premised upon our being in a group.

Without a group, we would never have learned how to communicate. Without a group, we would never have learned the necessary skills to produce the things we need for life. Without a group, it is unlikely we would have survived infancy. It isn't simply a matter of convenience. Our social nature is programmed into our genes. Groups in which social nature is encouraged are more likely to survive and spread their genes.

We need groups to survive, learn, and thrive. That's what it means to be human. It's why one of our greatest fears, second only to death is our fear of being apart, alone, outcast. How do we punish people in our society? By removing them from it. When we are away from our groups, we feel more anxious, we are quicker to be frightened. Sometimes it's good to get away, but to be truely alone is frightening thing.

So frightening that people will do a lot to stay with their groups. Cults work not by physical threats but by the fear of ostracism. You do what your cult wants because you are afraid to be apart from them. Soldiers will do almost anything to protect other members of their unit, to safeguard the group.

We worship the individual in this country, but in reality, the group is where we are happiest. It's where we belong in the most basic sense.

[Dis]

good post. we would have never got anywhere as a society with individualists. Although social groups have also been responsible for most of the world's atrocities, but what are you going to do . I guess you can't have society and not have atrocities.

individualism=anti-social.

I consider myself an invidualists. And people could probably call me anti-social as well (really I'm just very shy). But I'm not too individualist. Becauase I would never identify myself with other individualists .

[orange]

My argument isn't with groups. It's with group identification and hive mentality. I don't see how anything Che or Azazel has said contradicts anything I've said.

Obviously men are social beings.

[Q Classic]

ignore what others think of you to the best of your ability. do what you will. try not to label yourself.

that seems to work fairly well.

[chequita guevara]

Everyone needs to belong to a group. You just sound bitter.

[Q Classic]

besides, you are unique, just like everyone else.

[Drake Tungsten]

Individualism for its own sake is ****ing gay.

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Everyone needs to belong to a group. You just sound bitter.

Right. That does mean everyone must subordinate themselves and all their interests to a group.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Right. That does mean everyone must subordinate themselves and all their interests to a group.

Everything depends on circumstances. In a lifeboat, yes. In a university, no.

[Az]

che

[orange]

Everything depends on circumstances. In a lifeboat, yes. In a university, no.

Becuase I was clearly talking about a lifeboat.

[*End Is Forever*]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Everyone needs to belong to a group. You just sound bitter.

Solid-ar-itay com-rad! Wan sal-u-shan rev-a-loo-shan!

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*


Solid-ar-itay com-rad! Wan sal-u-shan rev-a-loo-shan!

White :: Black
Communism :: Capitalism

In the middle, you find SOCIALISM