The quest for REAL individualism (isn't as hard as you might think) - Page 2

orange · May 4, 2003, 20:43

Quote:

White :: Black
Communism :: Capitalism

Don't you mean

Quote:

Red :: White
Communism :: Capitalism

Shi Huangdi · May 4, 2003, 23:29

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In a university, no.

Thank you.

Kuciwalker · May 5, 2003, 00:03

I am me. No one else is me. I'm way too weird. No one else wants to be me. I scare people. I scare people badly.

chequita guevara · May 5, 2003, 00:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Thank you.

People still need friends. People will put up with a lot of **** to keep friendships . . . at least until they understand their own self-worth. Then they either realize they're *******s and they deserve to have ******* friends or they get a better quality of friend.

I have a better quality of friend. . . . I got you guys.

GePap · May 5, 2003, 00:20

I have never met somene who was not an individual, even if they happened to be very trend concisous and always eager to appear as fully conformits. Something or other always lurks underneath that singles them out, which of course many times forces these people to try to snuff it, but they can't, as it is part of oneself.

There is no inherent value in being "an individual". I am sure plenty of "individuals" whish to express themselves as one in something else, as a member of a group. As long as no one tries to "change" me, I don't care how they decide to act on thier lives.

Shi Huangdi · May 5, 2003, 00:44

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

People still need friends. People will put up with a lot of **** to keep friendships . . . at least until they understand their own self-worth. Then they either realize they're *******s and they deserve to have ******* friends or they get a better quality of friend.

I have a better quality of friend. . . . I got you guys.

Well the key is finding a balance between what you will compromise on your friends with for the sake of friendship, and what you will hold out on. It helps to find groups of friends who will be tolerant and not be demanding that you conform.

orange · May 5, 2003, 00:58

Quote:

People still need friends. People will put up with a lot of **** to keep friendships . . . at least until they understand their own self-worth. Then they either realize they're *******s and they deserve to have ******* friends or they get a better quality of friend.

Oh, this isn't about friendship. And this isn't about people being *******s. This is about people simply following trends for no other reason than to be exactly what their friends are. That is the hive mentality of which I speak. That is the lack of individualism. But it goes further than that. It's about identification. People talk about superficialities as if it defines who they are, is an excuse for who they are, or makes them something else.

Example from the 'article' if you want to call it that: Group of friends talking about 'Diversity'...one of them says "I'm all about Diversity. Diversity is my thing" another, not in the group, asks "What do you do that's Diverse?".

"Oh, well I'm in an all black sorority."

Everyone = "oooh"

Me = floored. How does that make you diverse?? If I said "I'm in the KKK" does that make me diverse?

Another example...today we are outside waiting for a few of our friends to go to lunch. One of my friends is saying how much he loves Sundays. The air is so crisp, and you can sleep in, and yada yada yada...basically he goes on and on with his flowerly language as if to say "I'm a man of feeling, I'm deep" when really he's not...I know he's not...but no one else seems to recognize the fact that he pulls this **** out of thin air just to hear himself talk. Futhermore, when we're done eating, he starts talking about how much he hates Sundays. People stare and listen and nod as if he's talking so much sense when just an hour ago he was rambling on about how great they were...

I said "I'm sorry, I thought you said Sundays were great?" He says "well, yes, well it all depends on how you look at things... (insert another hour of flowerly language here)"

I know another girl who for the past year has been 'anti-pop culture' because her friends were too. She's also 'straight-edge'. She got screwed on housing assignments this year, and had to transfer...transfered into a triple with two Eminem loving pop-culture party animals. Now she is too. Why? Because she's transparent...she mimics who she is around. And she's not the only one, I know plenty of people who do that...that's one of the worst.

Then there's my all time personal favourite...when people change their minds mid sentence to fit the majority.

Person: "Hey guys, have you ever heard of (insert band name here). I think they're great!"

Group: "we don't really like them that much"

Person: "well, i didn't mean they're great, I mean they're ok. I kinda liked their one song, anyway"

If you like them, like them. If you do'nt, don't. But make up your mind. Take a stand!

Quote:

I have a better quality of friend. . . . I got you guys.

I consider almost everyone at Apolyton to be a good example of an ideal individual. I think most of us think for ourselves, don't let the majority change our minds except through ration and debate, and are comftorable with who we are. That's a positive thing. If only more people (especially at the college level) were like that in real life

orange · May 5, 2003, 01:02

I recently heard a girl blame her D+ on a test on the fact that she was abused as a child. Give me a ****ing break.

Kuciwalker · May 5, 2003, 01:10

orange - one thing is true though. A person is defined by the set of communities to which he or she belongs. A person who is not a member of a community is dead.

orange · May 5, 2003, 01:11

Hermits?

I don't define myself by my communities. I define myself by my own attributes, one of which is, I have a big ****ing mouth.

Kuciwalker · May 5, 2003, 01:14

Hermits are part of the community of hermits. You are part of the community of individualists. You are part of the community of Apolyton posters. You are part of the subset of that community, OT posters. You are part of the community of...

You see?

orange · May 5, 2003, 01:17

No.

Those things don't define me. Community of hermits

tinyp3nis · May 5, 2003, 01:29

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

People still need friends. People will put up with a lot of **** to keep friendships . . . at least until they understand their own self-worth. Then they either realize they're *******s and they deserve to have ******* friends or they get a better quality of friend.

I have a better quality of friend. . . . I got you guys.

So true. I just had this happen to me, for the first time ever. I have a old friend of mine, whom I've known for 10 years, and we sometimes had "big issues with eachothers personalities". I put up many of hes shortcomings, untill I finally gave up on him late last year and haven't contacted him since. He wasn't really a close friend material, you have to get to know people very well before you can tell if they are rotten inside.

tinyp3nis · May 5, 2003, 01:30

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker
orange - one thing is true though. A person is defined by the set of communities to which he or she belongs. A person who is not a member of a community is dead.

Only partly.

monolith94 · May 5, 2003, 01:37

Wow... way too be judgemental, dude. You sure are unique in that. Gee - I wonder if Fight Club was on your mind at all?

Asher · May 5, 2003, 01:38

I was a skater / computer geek / shy-guy-no-one-talked to / shadow lurker in High School.

I'm now a (gay) computer geek with weird political beliefs, no religion, no S.O., and a huge dose of apathy.

I don't know what category that puts me under.

orange · May 5, 2003, 02:00

Quote:

Wow... way too be judgemental, dude. You sure are unique in that. Gee - I wonder if Fight Club was on your mind at all?

Only for the Khakis quote.

Have I done something to offend you? I can't help but notice that any time you respond to something I say, it's just a bit crass. I don't recall having any problems with you...did I miss something, or am I making this up?

Asher · May 5, 2003, 02:10

For the record, there's nothing wrong with most LiveJournals. The ones where people just ***** piss me off, though.

Drake Tungsten · May 5, 2003, 02:16

You still haven't explained why being an individual is inherently better than following the crowd. As I said before, individualism for its own sake is stupid. You need to have some sort of reason why individualism is better than collectivism before you start condemning others for conformity.

Imran Siddiqui · May 5, 2003, 02:19

Well, Drake, I think part of it is that conforming to a group results in a lack of real critical thinking of what you are doing. You accept what the group believes. Being an individual allows you to think things through before you decide which positions you follow.

Drake Tungsten · May 5, 2003, 02:25

Quote:

Well, Drake, I think part of it is that conforming to a group results in a lack of real critical thinking of what you are doing. You accept what the group believes. Being an individual allows you to think things through before you decide which positions you follow.

Why is this preferable? Isn't the collective intelligence of the group greater than whatever measly thinking skills the individual brings to the table?

Besides, are you really supposed to be proud of the use of your critical thinking skills to determine such mundane questions as what clothes you should wear or whether Eminem rocks or sucks? You might have a point on more important topics like politics or religion, but for most topics you'll encounter in your life going with the crowd isn't any less noble than making up your own mind. Why waste your time thinking about the banal when society does it for you?

Kidicious · May 5, 2003, 03:11

Good point Drake. I think its ok to be more individualistic if that's who you are, and it's ok to be more socialistic if that's who you are. That doesn't change the fact that we sympathize with each other when one of us is in need. Even an individualistic person can have a lot of sympathy for other human beings.

monolith94 · May 5, 2003, 03:21

"I can't help but notice that any time you respond to something I say, it's just a bit crass."
Ummmm no! I remember this as being the only time I've directly responded to you, in fact. I have no idea where this is coming from. Where I'm coming from is I am reading some tangential ramblings that provide no real insight and are rather hypocritical in their methods. I was annoyed. I'm getting a bit tired of pseudo-intellectualism, especially when it's used to elevate the speaker above others.

But other than that, I have no problems with you.

Imran Siddiqui · May 5, 2003, 03:21

Quote:

Isn't the collective intelligence of the group greater than whatever measly thinking skills the individual brings to the table?

The problem is when you subsume your entire thought process to the 'collective intelligence'. If you assume collective intelligence is greater than any individual, then what's the point in thinking.

Oh, and I must totally disagree that collective intelligence is always greater than the intelligence of an individual. The masses aren't always right.

Quote:

Why waste your time thinking about the banal when society does it for you?

Why think at all when society does it for you? If you say that picking out your clothes and what music to listen to should be directed by society, then where do you stop? If society decides what music you listen to, why shouldn't it decide what political beliefs or religions are available to you?

tinyp3nis · May 5, 2003, 03:35

Quote:

Why is this preferable? Isn't the collective intelligence of the group greater than whatever measly thinking skills the individual brings to the table?

No way! Only if the people in the group are much very much alike.
Usually the weakminded benefit from the group. The smart ones do not. The smart ones could however use the group to harvest knowledge for their superior brains. But that is just using intelligence as a factor, there of course are many other benefits depending on situation where intelligent person should be in a group of people with less intelligence.

Nothing wrong with agreeing with the crowd. Just think about it before you do that's all.

Drake Tungsten · May 5, 2003, 03:36

Quote:

If you say that picking out your clothes and what music to listen to should be directed by society, then where do you stop?

I never stated that you should base your clothing or music tastes on societal trends. I said that I don't see why behaving in that fashion is fundamentally inferior to making all those decisions on an individual basis.

In American society it is often assumed that an individual action is inherently better than a conformist one. I don't think that this is the case; going along with the group is often the easier and more productive means of behavior. There's a time and a place for both collectivism and individualism; the wise person acts accordingly.

Imran Siddiqui · May 5, 2003, 03:40

Quote:

I said that I don't see why behaving in that fashion is fundamentally inferior to making all those decision on an individual basis.

Because you shouldn't subsume to the whims of a majority simply because 'everyone is doing it'. Think before you decide to act or look a certain way, not just because the people in your area think it's the way to go.

It ends up in a slippery slope argument, I guess. If you subsume to the will of the majority in individual choices in one area, why not all of them?

There is nothing worse than a person who simply spouts party line for no reason other than the party says so. That is the end result of going with the flow, and if you say it is ok to simply go with the flow for the sake of doing so in some areas, its hard to say that in other areas you shouldn't.

Az · May 5, 2003, 03:40

Drake:

Drake Tungsten · May 5, 2003, 03:53

Quote:

Because you shouldn't subsume to the whims of a majority simply because 'everyone is doing it'.

Why not? I know the basic American response is to abhor conformity, but what's the reasoning behind it? That's what I'm really driving for.

What's so wrong with going with the crowd on some aspects of your life? Why upset group harmony and waste your own time and energy just to be an individual? Does it really matter whether you came to a reasoned conclusion on the value of khaki pants or Eminem in the long run?

Quote:

It ends up in a slippery slope argument, I guess.

A fallacy, you know.

Quote:

There is nothing worse than a person who simply spouts party line for no reason other than the party says so.

As long as their are some people actually thinking about things at the party level, I don't see what's so wrong with it. We can't all be experts on everything, so you have to spout off the ideas of others as if they're your own from time to time. I'm busy doing that very thing on an IPE paper.

Az · May 5, 2003, 04:00

Drake, I am agreeing with you too much. I think I became a member of your herd, and lost all of my individuality.