Ultimate Power: a more pragmatic approach - Page 5

Cort Haus · May 27, 2003, 14:57

In circa 800AD Japan attacked me, and I signed up the Persians and Germans to the cause. I only took a couple of Japanese cities, letting Persia and Germany help drive them from the North. Eventually, when my alliances expired and I'd made peace with Japan, I covertly assisted Japan with cash and tech to stop them being over-run.

Map and Powergraph : 1275 AD

Cort Haus · May 27, 2003, 14:59

1470 AD - Most Cities producing Wealth, having built just about everything, Combustion in 4 turns, and an military of 100+ Inf, 30 Cav, 30 Art. Nearly twice the power of the nearest power-rival (Celts). 1800 points scored, with nearest points-rival (Persia) on 1047. 8 techs ahead. Uni Suf next go - giving all Middle and Modern age wonders except Shakes (still on, the others have just discovered Free Artistry). It's basically check-mate as I'm well ahead, and have sufficient power to deal with any threat and take the victory of choice. I could declare it over here, but let's see what happens...

1480 AD - Persians declare war. Maybe they ran out of money. Maybe the fates are requesting a demonstration of 'Sufficient Power'...

(1500 AD - Built Shakespeare to complete the set.)

1560 AD - Persians finito. Japanese allies got some Persian cities, I only took the rest to keep Japan down. Radio in 5 turns to enter Modern Age. Now have 35 Tanks with Bombers on the way. Diplomatic is the quickest way to the high-score table.

Cort Haus · May 27, 2003, 15:00

1665 AD - Diplomatic Victory.

Master Zen · May 27, 2003, 15:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Where are you building your FP, Master Zen?

Hmm.... forest chops... could be out West.

-Arrian

The FP will be built in a city besides the 1-tile lake west of the desert west of the starting spot. It's a good city site, has hills, the lake, plains and some forests which I just chopped.

If I get a leader, I'll rush the Palace from Carthage to a cite more on the south-east too, that should give me a good balance especially considering I am not planning on expanding eastwards at all, just conquered Japan, and plan on taking out Germany with Cavalry...

(oh wait, wasn't I supposed to NOT warmonger??

)

Arrian · May 27, 2003, 15:18

You were supposed to play it however you pleased.

I played it as a psychotic aggressive warmonger, and offered it to MS for a PUP comparison. But he got sucked into lots of fighting.

Your FP is right next to my eventual capitol location. Persopolis makes a decent FP/Palace spot...

Cort Haus,

Nice! Thanks for the AAR. Wow - you crushed what appears to have been a fairly strong Persia. Did they not have Infantry?

I didn't intentionally try to screw the peacenicks with this game. I didn't intentionally do anything... this was just a game I played for my own enjoyment and it occurred to me that I'd like to see MS have a crack at it (I wish the AI hadn't been so aggressive against him) and others if they wished.

I'd like to see someone else go the psycho warmonger route like me, too.

-Arrian

Cort Haus · May 27, 2003, 15:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
That's not an attack. That's a POSSIBLE attack. I'm doing the same thing in my current game as America. I only have one source of coal. The tiny Arab nation to my north has two. If I ever run out of mine... well...

... you'll be able to buy their spare!

Master Zen · May 27, 2003, 16:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
You were supposed to play it however you pleased.

I played it as a psychotic aggressive warmonger, and offered it to MS for a PUP comparison. But he got sucked into lots of fighting.

Your FP is right next to my eventual capitol location. Persopolis makes a decent FP/Palace spot...

I was thinking of a little more north-westerly as I am not involved in the north-east. The respawned Persians took that space and the Germans have been sending settler teams like crazy (and half their army's there).

I'll crush Germany with cavalry, then go after the Russians just for fun. Ill leave the tip for my last warmongering spree. If I have time I'll go for a conquest victory against the Celts. If I take out Germany before they get Astronomy I can deny them contact which will basically leave the Celts waay behind in techs.

So, I avoided the Archer rush because I planned on being peaceful but it seems I'm going to war during every other warmongering phase: swordsmen, knights, then cav. And if there's someone still alive by the time I get Tanks...

Semi-Psycho? Yes, I'm delaying their science as much as I can so I can gear up for the Cav rush and catch the others with measly muskets.

Cort Haus · May 27, 2003, 16:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Wow - you crushed what appears to have been a fairly strong Persia. Did they not have Infantry?

Embarrassingly for them

, they didn't even have Electricity. They had a real problem from their old war with Germany and couldn't get out of monarchy.

In fact it felt like I was the only one researching anything. Everyone else on my continent got battered, mainly by each other, the Celts whacked down their neighbours early on, and the Russians were in long isolation. No one else even had Repl. Parts when I won.

After the Persians declared war, I got Germany & Japan in to soak up what Persia could give, then cleaned up with Cav and a few Tanks at the end.

An interesting map, with the challenge of tough neighbours being offset by the empty lands to the west - ideal for Carthage.

Arrian · May 27, 2003, 16:26

Yeah, that'll do it.

I won before the enemy even got Riflemen. Cav + inf + arty vs. muskets, a ton of med inf, and a few knights. My final "war" against the Celts was a sustained massacre. I wonder if I could've gotten to MA before they got Riflemen... probably, though the cultural win would surely have kicked in first.

-Arrian

Master Zen · May 27, 2003, 16:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, that'll do it.

I won before the enemy even got Riflemen. Cav + inf + arty vs. muskets, a ton of med inf, and a few knights. My final "war" against the Celts was a sustained massacre. I wonder if I could've gotten to MA before they got Riflemen... probably, though the cultural win would surely have kicked in first.

-Arrian

Hmm.... MA vs Riflemen... you're giving me ideas against the Celts

Nakar Gabab · May 27, 2003, 19:36

Speaking of strange maps and Ultimate Power(TM). Let's try another example. Celts, Regent (I think I'm pretty secure in moving up to Monarch regularly now), standard settings on a pangaea. No barbs of any kind, including huts (I've been trying in vain, as you'll soon see, to slow down the pace of research in my game without playing larger maps; despite making the tech rate slower and getting rid of huts, this game still turned nasty).

I started off in a little area with a couple thin peninsulas to the east and south. I went trolling with a pair of archers and a starting warrior, and eventually stumbled across my first contact, and first victim. PUP says to avoid wars that aren't needed, but I figured they'd just take my REXing land anyway, so it was justified...

EDIT: These attachments are far too large. Blame 1280x960 and check 'em out at
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/2350bc.gif and
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/1990bc.gif

Nakar Gabab · May 27, 2003, 20:08

With Rome out of the picture and everyone else a world away, I went into hardcore REXing mode, spreading east and south. This worked out to my seeming disadvantage, as I found myself seemingly hopeless in the tech race. People were into the Middle Ages before Year 0, and I switched to Republic in 70 BC. Nevertheless, I led the score and power charts with about 100 over France, which was quite powerful (as you'll see).

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/1250bc.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/530bc.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/70bc.gif

Then, opportunity strikes! Or was it the Ottomans strike? Well, whichever. The war was not going my way at first, leading to the fall of my southernmost incense city. Rome was strong, however, and refused to fall to the horsemen and archers of the Ottomans. At this point I pointed myself at Chivalry and unleashed the Gallic Swordsmen. The extra movement of the UU proved to be the gamebreaker in this case. With ordinary swordsmen or one-move units, I'd have had to cross the entire length of my continent (where my core was located) just to get to the front lines. I could (and did) use Horsemen, to say nothing of greasing Catherine's palm (I hoped she would keep Osman busy, but they didn't seem to do much of anything to each other), but the GS's provided the initial punch that let me fight back the Ottomans. Alas, there was more drama!

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/340ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/370ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/370ad2.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/390ad.gif

But then came the swordsmen...

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/510ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/520ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/530ad.gif

And the first of my wonders. Okay, so I missed out on the ancient ones. Sue me, you don't need 'em to get your UP on. Besides, if you're Religious and want any one wonder... well... this'll be it.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/560ad.gif

Chivalry researched, and Knights replace the now-obsolete Gallic Swordsmen (gotta hate MedInf at a time like this). Now it's time to show Osman who's the boss (not Tony Danza, though Brennus sort of resembles Burt Reynolds).

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/590ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/610ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/620ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/620ad2.gif

First leader, Vercingetorix! Arrian would recommend I rush a FP somewhere around here. And that's exactly what I did. The Ottomans were left with one city surrounded by France. Russia did the honors while I took the spoils.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/640ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/650ad2.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/650ad3.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/660ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/670ad2.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/680ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/690ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/710ad.gif

So I figure I've got PUP going, and I should try to settle down and all. Ahhhh, Joan, why ya gotta be like that.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/750ad.gif

So I didn't want to, but I did. Joan had Cavalry, which was a panic situation, but MilTrad was signed, sealed, and delivered by the surprisingly advanced Alexander, and the tide turned. Oh, also, another leader.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/850ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/850ad2.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/880ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/900ad.gif

Rushed the best wonder around, naturally. And captured a few more. But those French stayed uppity to the end.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/920ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/920ad2.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/940ad.gif
http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/940ad2.gif

What you don't see from this surrender is the Pyramids, which were the last stop on my tour to Paris.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/980ad.gif

Ultimate enough for you?

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/1050ad.gif

What was left of France after I and the rest of the world were through with it. I got all the good stuff.

http://www.warskunk.com/~nakar/celts/1120ad.gif

I don't even know if I should bother at this point. I have seven of the eight luxuries without trading, a tech lead, factories going up everywhere, the biggest army, and two to three times the land over the Russians.

Konquest02 · May 27, 2003, 20:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
You were supposed to play it however you pleased.

[...]

I'd like to see someone else go the psycho warmonger route like me, too.

-Arrian

I went in rather warmonger path, not really psycho though. I don't have much time to play, as real life is getting in the way...

--Kon--

Nakar Gabab · May 27, 2003, 20:16

DP. Go me.

Here's the enigma: This game almost certainly COULD have been UP (I don't think it was because I didn't get a lead in tech like I did in everything else), but the AI rushed ahead like it was on a crackheaded Emperor trading blitz. How did that happen? More to the point, how did I get back in the saddle?

One could say warmongering, but the only war I ever declared was against Rome right off the bat - everyone else declared on me, and I responded in kind. Yet it was probably that rush (cross-list this with the archer rush thread) that delivered the game. I was able to knock out an immediate but distant neighbor and expand into a huge open area. Russia snuck a few cities in because of our ROP, but half of them defected anyway. The use of GS's, Horsemen, and Knights against the surprisingly yielding French and Ottomans suggests that the AI doesn't know not to pick fights against someone who desires PUP.

In many ways, the AI forced my hand, denying me a peaceful and productive expansion at the cost of a crushing military defeat. This defeat slowed my momentum, but gave me a greater maximum momentum, which is starting to come into play now. With the one "killer AI" (France, which was huge until a Polite Joan irrationally invaded me) knocked out of the picture, the AI tech-trading seems to be grinding to a halt and my engine is really cranking up.

It seems that Ultimate Power is, in many ways, determined as much by what the AI does as by what you do. Sure, you can decide to go for a peaceful or pragmatic and diplomatic form of UP, but what happens when the AI just won't give up? In this case, Ultimate Power could've been denied to me by advanced AI civs which were jumping at each and every one of the wonders. I shouldn't have been allowed to sneak in the Sistine Chapel, and I certainly shouldn't have wound up with Leo's, Sun Tzu's, and the Pyramids, none of which I even had a PRAYER of building. But the AI was aggressive towards me without cause, and I responded just as callously. Now I'm sitting on a massive military advantage and will assuredly rule the Industrial and Modern Ages. The AI defeated itself.

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
DP. Go me.

One could say warmongering, but the only war I ever declared was against Rome right off the bat - everyone else declared on me, and I responded in kind.

In many ways, the AI forced my hand, denying me a peaceful and productive expansion at the cost of a crushing military defeat.

It seems that Ultimate Power is, in many ways, determined as much by what the AI does as by what you do.

I absolutely agree with you. You can only play PUP (or PP) games if the AI 'plays' along with you.
In my above Carthage game, the Germans tried an ultra-early archer rush, then the Persians and the Japanese declared war on me. Therefore, I spend much of my time waging wars, which was not my intention, specially with the huge empty swat of empty land west.

Arrian's UP games are a bit different, in the sense that he will go to war anyway, but I must admit that NOT starting a war but have it started on you can be a bit embarassing...

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:40

‘American Adventure’. PTW, Monarch, standard map, 8 civs, all else is random, Barbs ‘meek’.

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:40

4000BC: the beginning. The spot looks nice: water, hills, gold, wine, forest, let’s give it a chance.

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:41

2350BC: interesting: 3 more luxuries, wheat, gold and a big jungle north. Therefore, go south, east and west, young men! (and women, and cattle, and goats and…).

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:42

850BC:
The good news: the Babylonian’s expansion is checked for now. Now, if they were to do something stupid…
The bad news: it’s so crowded down there! How do you plan to get a viable empire with only half a dozen cities?

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:43

370BC: did the Babylonians really believe that they could smuggle two settlers’ caravans by our watchful guards? Ah well, I was short of workers anyway…

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:43

90BC: the end of the American’s peaceful expansion. The ruin was a Babylonian outpost.

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:45

190AD: Persia threatened the mighty Americans. Unfortunately for them, their land was the best around… and so the first American-Persian war started.

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:46

630AD: end of the first American-Persian war. We even got a GL for the trouble. Let’s celebrate and make people happy!

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:47

920AD: Second American-Persian war: the Persians were too stubborn to surrender, even in front of overwhelming odds. Now they are… history.
We got two new GL: the FP is in Antioch now (perfect!) and we completed Leo’s (you never know…). Our expansion is over. We have attained our critical size.

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:47

1285AD: Of course, I wanted to say that our expansion was over, provided nobody else would do something stupid again. Well, the Aztec did. Lincoln is still wondering why Montezuma is not happy with us….

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:48

1295AD: The lazy American-Aztec war: we did not plan this war, therefore we did not really want to fight it. Who cares about the Aztec’s land anyway? Mostly jungle, no new luxuries. So we let the others fight it for us. The only drawback is the amount of military units on our roads.
Oh, we still plan to get some Aztec cities. We don’t want pour neighbours to get too powerful, after all. We definitively plan to conquer Atzcapotzalco (and its spices), if only to change its name!

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:50

1365AD: Montezuma was really stubborn, so instead of keeping his eastern cities he lost them. Oh, another GL for a cavalry army. We’re ahead in techs, build all the MA wonders. So far, we got 5 more cities, but we really don’t know what to do with them…

Mountain Sage · May 28, 2003, 04:51

So, this is the end of part 1.
My comments? The Americans are fun to play. I could not conceive not to play a non-industrious civ (my English is really going downhill).
As for the expansionist trait, I couldn’t really use it. This standard map was too crowded from the beginning (I just got 1 goodie-hut, Barbs of course), but on a huge map…
Looks like a PUP game after all.
More next Wednesday, if I still have a computer….

cumi · May 28, 2003, 05:06

Nice starting point, actually. 3 types of luxuries guarantied...

Arrian · May 28, 2003, 09:26

MS,

One question, regarding your 2350 & 850 BC screenshots:

Why is all that grassland irrigated? Surely you're still a Despot at that time, so the irrigation is totally wasted. The only thing I could think of is that you wanted to get irrigation over to Erin and Philadelphia, but you could have done that via Atlanta without slowing Roxane's production (while aiding Atlanta's growth).

Regarding the one hut you popped: it could not have been barbarians, since expansionist civs never pop barbarian warriors. Are you sure it wasn't "empty?"

Anyway, it looks like a very solid game. Good Palace/FP placement, some GLs... well done indeed.

-Arrian