Ultimate Power: a more pragmatic approach - Page 7

Arrian · September 4, 2003, 08:37

Bah. I can't stand Com/Sci. I'll start playing more Emp games, but not as Greece, thankee.

I'm still finishing off my Chinese Emperor game, and I'm annoyed at the AI.

I'm winning my war with the Mongols. Slowly but surely, I turned the tide, and as of this writing, I've taken or razed/rebuilt 9 Mongol cities. IIRC, that leaves them with 7. The captured list includes Karakorum, with the Pyramids & Copernicus. My alliance with Rome expired & I got rid of it, so I can make peace at any time... or slog through the remaining cities to destroy them (I've been up against infantry for 5-10 turns now, so it's slow going). WW isn't as bad as I initially worried... but it's getting bad now (~22 turns into the war, so no complaints here).

What I would actually like to do is make peace in exchange for 1 tech, and then hit them again in 20 turns with Tanks. I can't do it, though. Because they won't give me the ****ing tech. If it was a case of "the AI hates me because I've been beating on them for thousands of years, and now they've got 1 city left, so they're not giving me anything" I'd be fine with it. But that's not the case. This is the only war we've ever fought, and the Mongols are still somewhat viable. They still have several core cities, and a Wonder of the World (Newton). In fact, they would pay me 409 gold (all of it) and 75 gold per turn for peace. That is almost 2000 gold - hardly a pittance - so it's clearly all about the cost of tech in the industrial age.

This highlights one of the reasons I like ancient era warfare. Techs are cheap back then, and a good war can net you a bundle of them. Similar in the middle ages, though they're a tad costlier. But by the industrial age, they're so expensive that you are hard pressed to get 1 for peace. It's sorta screwy, in that it's a better idea from the Mongolian standpoint to give me 1 technology instead of coughing up all (or nearly all) of their gold for the next 20 turns.

The tech I seek in this case is nationalism, which as we all know, the AI just loves. 3 civs have it (Egypt, Rome, Mongols), 3 don't (me, Korea, India - the other 2 civs are dead). I want it so I can research commie real quick and get police stations.

So, there are 4 options that I can see:

1) Destroy Mongolia, research nationalism myself
2) Make peace with Mongolia, grabbing as much gold as I can, research nationalism myself
3) Make peace with Mongolia, paying whatever I have to for nationalism, figuring that I'm getting a discount (theoretically, 409 gold + 75 gpt)
4) Gift Korea the remaining medieval techs, hoping they get nationalism for free, and thereby reducing the cost of research/purchase for me.

Whaddya think? I think I'm gonna kill the bastards.

-Arrian

Theseus · September 4, 2003, 09:10

Watch out for those hwacha!!

Arrian · September 4, 2003, 09:20

Korea has one city left (Inchon

). I'm shakin', really.

Seriously, though, what would you do?

-Arrian

Master Zen · September 4, 2003, 11:06

4) reminds me of something that happened a few weeks ago...

from an outsider's point of view I'd go for 2) and maybe use the slider to get the tech quicker thanks to the gold surplus. Btw, didn't you say they didn't want to trade you the tech? Therefore I don't see how 3) is an option...

Arrian · September 4, 2003, 11:24

RE: #3 -

They won't *give* it to me for peace. They would sell it to me. Since peace is apparently worth 409g + 75 gpt, I figure that's what I can lop off the cost of buying nationalism, if I do the deal in conjunction with the peace treaty.

Thing is, I offered peace + 500 gold for nationalism, just to see if it changed what the advisor said, and it didn't. It was still "I doubt they will accept this deal." I didn't work out exactly what they will demand for it, but I suspect it will take several thousand gold.

Getting their money will not increase the speed at which I research the tech, since I can do it in 4 turns regardless. I'm trying to save those 4 turns, though, since if I have to do the research myself, getting to communism will take 8 turns. Those 8 turns will eat into my Industrial Corridor tech lead.

So the question becomes: is 409g + 75gpt, plus getting rid of the war weariness worth the chance of flips in the 4 cities I've kept instead of razing/rebuilding? I'm thinking that the answer is no, and therefore I should just kill 'em. Even though that means 1-2 turns of artillery bombardment per city, followed by waves of Cav attacks to kill their infantry. It ain't pretty, but it does work.

The other issue I have to deal with is that I'm trying to set up an overseas colony (city), in the shattered mess that used to be Carthaginian territory. My transport (with a settler, an infantry, and 2 guerrilas on it) is 3 turns away from a site which will give me spices. I'm going to need to get just a few more troops over to that city in order to properly defend it (like, oh, 10 more defenders, all my arty, and as many Tanks as I can crank out, not to mention some naval protection), and this whole killing the Mongols thing is hampering that effort.

-Arrian

Tall Stranger · September 4, 2003, 17:36

Hmmm. My thoughts on your predicament (for what they're worth):

First off, option 4) seems to be a no-brainer to me: do it immediately. If you get lucky, your move significantly reduces the cost of nationalism and gives you a safe civ to buy it from, if desired. If unlucky, your gift won't make you any worse off. Since you can squash them like a bug any time you want, gifting the techs can only help you.

Now for the real issue. Let's clarify that it's not nationalism you care about, but communism. Thus, the real question is "Can I extort enough from the Mongols to make up for the 8 turns it will cost me to research comm myself?" Seems to me the answer depends on a couple of issues:

1) Have you broken the Mongols' back, or could they still cause you trouble in the future?
I really prefer to eliminate or reduce to impotence all civs on my continent before dealing with opponents on other continents. The last thing you want is a second front during an intercontinental war. Of course, the best way to prevent this problem is to destroy them totally.

2) Are you researching everything in 4 turns, or are some of the more expensive techs taking 6-7 turns?
If the former, the Mongols' money probably isn't all that valuable to you (though it could be if the Koreans get nationalism.) If the latter, you may want to think about accepting their offer, researching nat'lism and/or comm yourself, and using the Mongols' gold to run a deficit for a while until you can "recoup" the 4 or 8 turns worth of research you've lost. All depends on your research level and econ strength.

My recommendation: Gift the techs to the Koreans, break the Mongols' back, and then see if they still make you a nice offer. If so, take it and try to recoup the loss of research time. If they managed to blow their cash, destroy them, sow their fields with salt and scatter the few remaining survivors to the corners of the world.

Dominae · September 4, 2003, 18:31

Nationalism (and Police Stations) can wait. Kick some butt now...perfect your empire later.

But you knew I would say that.

Dominae

Theseus · September 4, 2003, 20:58

How about 2 AND 4?

(although TS' attitude is quite admirable

)

Master Zen · September 4, 2003, 21:13

If I were you I'd be thinking to myslef at this moment, "well, I'm going to win eventually anyways so who cares!"

Dominae · September 4, 2003, 23:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
If I were you I'd be thinking to myself at this moment, "well, I'm going to win eventually anyways so who cares!"

Yes, well, sometimes it's best not to post everything that one thinks.

Seriously, though, there's no rhyme or reason that determines which games I will finish and which I will not. I do on occasion finish games that are a foregone conclusion (and enjoy them too!).

It's difficult sometimes to give strategy advice, because you have to understand what the other person is trying to accomplish. If I were playing Arrian's game, I would probably skip Communism entirely because I do not think Police Stations would really help me win the game any faster (which is often what I am looking to do). But Arrian has a different goal: not to win fast, but to win more. That's fine and I respect that. But how do you give advice in this circumstance? What if someone really wants to beat up on his opponents with Panzers (always a memorable experience), but could easily finish the opposition off with Artillery/Infantry first? What kind of "strategy" advice do you give then?

I'm not complaining here, mind you, just pointing out the difference between Arrian and I which gives rise to my occasional cheeky comments.

Dominae

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 03:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
fanes7,
This is not a Monarch game, but an Emperor one. Why don't you give it a try, even if it's a bit low for you, and post your screenshots with us?

Yesterday night, I played this save-file. I formerly thought it must be very simple. when I was playing I found it has some chanllenge, and I played very happy, this save-file is very interesting.

Thanks, Mountain Sage, I will upload my game-pic & save-file at once.

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 04:14

This is my capital's site. I choice the no-shield grassland square, and this square is nearby the coast :

At North, I found the Chinese area. So the war will begin.

Very lucky, I found a settle at 3400. So I soon will have two city, and it would double my empire size. Thanks Gods!

The war is ineluctable. My warrior came through the war and became elite.

I lost a regular in the war, but got a GL, the Pyrrhus!

I hurried the Pyramids in my Athens.

After this, I can enjoy some peace turns.

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 04:36

The first Wonder is built, and my 2nd aim is finding more civs, having more cities, and upgrading more units.

Go on~

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 04:51

This is my 2nd Elite Unit, that's very great, means my 2nd GL is coming...

So soon, I got my 2nd GL, and this is the save-file, you can recur it by attacking arabia.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...0-the2ndGL.SAV

And the picture:

Finding that the computer's researching is very slow, I decided research technologies myself. I only found 2 civs, this maybe because the other civs were in other lands. So my research aim is Write - Map Making , I should go out sea to find other civs ASAP.

Just as I compeleted my Colossus, the enemy unit attacked my elite, and found my 3rd GL - Ajax. I am really lucky, ;-). And this can be recured by the save-file:
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...s2390-Ajax.SAV

The Colossus is mine !

And an epic of ancient age, The Greece is No.1

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 05:05

When I got my 3rd GL - Ajax , I am so sad that I haven't enough cities to build an army, so my Ajax can but relax, he had nothing to do in some turns, it's really a pity, and it's also indicate that I have not schemed my producting very well.

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 05:15

At 1990BC, I had 4 cities at last, Ajax built my first army, an elite* warrior join it and began to fight.

Dispend 4 turns, my army was attacked and won in defence. Now I can build our Heroic Epic.

This save-file recur the Ulysess' appearing at 1650BC.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...50-Ulysess.SAV

As Ulysess appeared, the China-computer was eliminated.

After two turns, Ulysess hurried the Heroic Epic in Athens:

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 05:20

After China quited, I hadn't found other civs, I feel some anxiety, I should find other civs more early, if I have Map Making ...

So the next task is research Map Making more rapidly.

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 05:36

After built the Heroic Epic, the GL appeared more easy.

But now I found only one opponent in this island. For the sake of getting more GL , I must find more enemy to fight. The China quit and the arabia will doom quiting, through these, my empire should create more GL to support the wonder-building.

Fortunately, Map Making was soon completed .

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 05:45

This savefile recur Pyrrhus appearing.
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...25-Pyrrhus.SAV

the 2nd Pyrrhus:

The 2nd Pyrrhus hurried the Great Light House. He waited one turn for completing the research.

This save-file recur Hector appearing.
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...1250-Helco.SAV

The 2nd Hector:

This is the battlefront situation:

The 2nd Hector hurried the Oracle. ( Is there Sybase in the game ? ;-) ) Also , I built a settle and my first ship .

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 05:54

This save-file recur Ajax appearing.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/fan...s1150-Ajax.SAV

The 2nd Ajax, the Ares' 2nd son.

The 2nd Ajax hurried the Great Library.

My ship find German and Carthage. This two civs are very uncultured. ........ Maybe I'm too strong ? haha.

OK, the Great Library open my civs Golden age.

This is Athens:

fanes7 · September 7, 2003, 06:13

In the beginning of the game , I made a mistake : building the city too wide (or too open?)

because this is middle map, so too wide size city make too many corruption.

After I built Sparta, I found this problem, and corrected it in time.

The other mistake is : I begin researching too later, I should research Write at beginning.

I often play in huge map and with 16 civs, in that case I needn't research any technology, because the computer develop very quick, I only need pay attention to one thing - conquest, when I win in the war, I can get any thing from computer. But in a middle size map, I often get nothing from the peace treate.

After all, the smaller map is more easy than bigger one , though the beginning fight in the small map is more drastic than the one in the big map. I am very enjoyed in the beginning fight with Chinese strong archer and the arabia's warrior. Anyway, it's a good scenario ( or AU ), I like it and wish you enjoy it too.

Any reply is welcome, thanks

Sheik · September 7, 2003, 11:19

MountainSage, I just want to say that those are really nice screenshots. They really caught my eye. I don't know why but they seem brighter than others.

fanes7 · September 8, 2003, 00:21

I have a city that have all Great wonders and almost all small wonders, oh, what a glorious city !

Hehe, the city will make you dumbstruck and be filled with shocked wonders. That achievement feeling make man mad.

Tassadar500 · September 8, 2003, 00:52

fanes7 is it actually possible to have all Great Wonders in a city. I doubt it.

vmxa1 · September 8, 2003, 01:17

I would like to know how you got so many leaders from archers? I have fought many battles with archers and have very rarely made a leader with one. Even in my game with 55 leaders.

Master Zen · September 8, 2003, 02:18

you got 55 leaders in one game?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

motherf*cking amazing!

(my record is 11 in huge)

vmxa1 · September 8, 2003, 02:42

Yes, but it was before PTW, It was a huge map. I had two other games in the twenties. Now it is more like 4-6. Often a non mil civ will get 1 or 2 in a std map for me.

In that game I had 6 made in one turn. I would send the leader off to be used to make a structure or a ship, just to get rid of it, so I could make another. It was not a function of skill, it was a function of not playing smart.
I just sent out a few SoD's and left them in the field for a long time and attacked or defended against the stacks that came my way. I would replace the losses. Several civs were at war with me at once and kept them coming. I did not go after their cities for a long time.
Somewhere after 1.29f and then PTW, I saw a big drop off on leaders. I know some of that had to do with me taking down neighbors sooner, but not all of it.
I sort of miss the early games before any patches. I would see massive stacks of jag warriors sent to one city blocking access. I remember one of over 80. Many other civs would send lots of units at the city.
It is sort of like the old Moo1 game. You could see these massive fleets come for you, but once you learned to play better, the AI never got the chance to do it.

Master Zen · September 8, 2003, 03:39

Hehe... I actually hated Civ3 when it came out, so I played a couple of games back in 2001 then dropped it until the 1.29 patch came out. I really didn't get hooked until PTW. My 11 leader game was with regular Civ3 1.29. I played total psycho warmonger in that one with France, had a lot of fun with it.

fanes7 · September 8, 2003, 07:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear Master
fanes7 is it actually possible to have all Great Wonders in a city. I doubt it.

If you want to see a city like this , please give me a deity save-file . I play in civ3-1.21f or ptw1.14f. I haven't got the upgrade-file for Chinese version PtW, this is the latest version I can get.

Because building all wonder is a great challenge, I require that first city place must close a river and near coast, and it is better in 16(or more)civs - huge - ragebarbarian - no-island map, and the beginning place is better that have 2 or 3 cattles or wheats.

It will take in several week that play in huge map. My computer is very slow (CPU:c3-433MHz, Memory:96) and I can play game only 1or2 hours every night, but I can play it all day at Sunday.

Previously, I only completed this Great Work in playing China-civ, because China-civ is more easy in creating GL and China-civ-works build road and work faster ( in DyP, serf don't need maintenance, it's more advantageous for an military-civ)

If you are really interesting in this, I think we can build a AU 403 for this , haha, it's name maybe " All Wonders Land", the player can win only by building all Great wonders in one city.

fanes7 · September 8, 2003, 07:51

I agree your point of view very much. That is you get the game's essential point.

When the player master the game , the player will have the initiative in every turn , even in the most weak time - the beginning time.

Geting more GL is possible, if the player attack computer ceaseless.

So the game's distillation or kernel is : build unit and road ceaseless, use your GL build wonder, utilize your wonder to economize your shield output ( you needn't build granary&barrack&plant ... because you have wonder, and you have HangGarden & SistingChurch ( I forget name) ,you save many gold for happy face.)

So it's a loop : Unit - GL - Wonder - SaveMoreBuilding&GetMorePopulation - MoreUnit - MoreGL - ...

The key is how to open this loop door, this is the thing that player should master.

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Yes, but it was before PTW, It was a huge map. I had two other games in the twenties. Now it is more like 4-6. Often a non mil civ will get 1 or 2 in a std map for me.

In that game I had 6 made in one turn. I would send the leader off to be used to make a structure or a ship, just to get rid of it, so I could make another. It was not a function of skill, it was a function of not playing smart.
I just sent out a few SoD's and left them in the field for a long time and attacked or defended against the stacks that came my way. I would replace the losses. Several civs were at war with me at once and kept them coming. I did not go after their cities for a long time.
Somewhere after 1.29f and then PTW, I saw a big drop off on leaders. I know some of that had to do with me taking down neighbors sooner, but not all of it.
I sort of miss the early games before any patches. I would see massive stacks of jag warriors sent to one city blocking access. I remember one of over 80. Many other civs would send lots of units at the city.
It is sort of like the old Moo1 game. You could see these massive fleets come for you, but once you learned to play better, the AI never got the chance to do it.