Ultimate Power: a more pragmatic approach - Page 8

Verto · September 8, 2003, 08:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
you got 55 leaders in one game?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

(my record is 11 in huge)

I usually get 7.

Arrian · September 8, 2003, 09:38

Update for any who might care:

I decided to gift techs to Korea, hoping they would get nationalism when they entered the Industrial Age. And I got lucky. So I was able to trade for Nationalism for techs everyone else already had (Demo, Steam Power, Medicine, IIRC). Then, after knocking the Mongols down to 2 cities, I got Communism for peace. The Mongols died precisely 22 turns later.

Dominae is entirely correct, btw, about my mindset. I know I didn't need Police Stations to win. But I did need them to have the empire I wanted, for fun. Just like I want all 8 luxuries. I don't need them to win, but they make my multitudes happy, and since I am a river to my people, I must have them. And I do, thanks to severe stupidity on the part of Cleopatra, and the wonders of Modern Armor (when used against poor 'ole infantry). I'm going with the SS win, though, so most of Egypt is getting razed.

Regarding Fanes' game, wow, that's some damn good leader luck with a non-militaristic civ! I mean, just getting that many units promoted to elite is impressive, let alone getting leaders out of them

Having said that, I think I mentioned that my Chinese game started with some excellent leader luck. Wanna know *how* excellent? My first archer (vet) won a battle and was promoted to elite. A turn or two later, it won another battle, and generated a leader. Shortly thereafter, my second elite archer, upon winning its first elite combat, generated leader #2.

In short, 2 early leaders from my first 2 elite combat wins. Yikes. Without that luck, things would have been much more difficult. This was like playing on a level inbetween Monarch and Emperor. Which I enjoyed thoroughly, of course.

-Arrian

Theseus · September 8, 2003, 10:39

I was just thinking of my Seven Pillars thread for fanes7...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=67506

And there goes Arrian with a reference to "Lawrence of Arabia."

I AM A RIVER TO MY PEOPLE!!

(I feel the same, of course

)

Dominae · September 8, 2003, 10:52

Sorry to be a troll:

Having reviewed fanes7's game, I can confidently say there is nothing he is doing that justifies the appearance of so many Great Leaders (no ground-breaking strategy here). Even if it is "super luck", I'm skeptical that it can occur in all his games.

Therefore I will put forward that fanes7 is either:

1. Cheating.
2. Using modified rules without his knowledge.
3. So lucky he would be better off playing the lottery than civ.

1 and 2 differ only in intent.

But, I am open to being proved wrong. I would be interested in playing the same set of moves from a savegame of my choosing with him. If some of his "luck" then transfers to me, I'll remove my doubts.

fanes7, I think the burden of proof is on you to show how you get such amazing yet amazingly improbable results. Otherwise I'm afraid people will start ignoring you.

Again, sorry to be a troll, but no one seems to have stepped up to the plate lately.

Dominae

Arrian · September 8, 2003, 11:06

Theseus

glad you caught the reference.

Dominae - it does seem a bit improbable, doesn't it? But didn't fanes attach saves?

-Arrian

Dominae · September 8, 2003, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
But didn't fanes attach saves?

I have neither the time nor the expertise to figure out if they were tampered with...

Dominae

vmxa1 · September 8, 2003, 11:37

I agree with Dom. The reason I did not step forward, is I can not figure out anyway it could be done, even with cheating, other than an editor. I do not even know if an editor exist.
I am not sure if endless reloading would even be able to do it, but I guess it could.
I once argued with a Might and Magic player that felt it was ok to reload a 100 times to get a scroll form a shop.
He felt that ws not cheating? I could not see the difference between that and using an editor to give yourself the scroll, except it would save time.
My point is that some people are willing to reload endlessly. It is unfathomable to me, how could one stand to do it?
Anyway great claims, require great proof. If it was me and I could do that, I would do a session game. I would post a start save. I would post periodic saves with detailed logs to make it so one could replicate the results. This is what I do in Moo2 games. That way it is plain to see how it was done and anyone can repeat it.

Master Zen · September 8, 2003, 13:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae

Therefore I will put forward that fanes7 is either:

1. Cheating.
2. Using modified rules without his knowledge.
3. So lucky he would be better off playing the lottery than civ.

I haven't really read all the posts by fanes7 but wasn't he using a mod or something like that?

However, leader generation is hard-coded so its not like you can change the editor to get a leader for every elite victory

I too would like to see if at least random seed was checked on or off.

Dominae · September 8, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Zen
However, leader generation is hard-coded so its not like you can change the editor to get a leader for every elite victory.

Frankly, I have little idea how cheats work. I do know that they often break seemingly "hard-coded" game rules.

Perhaps it's just reloading with Random Seed off, but in my ignorance I can imagine that some more direct for of cheating could be going on.

Or, case 3 is true, and we've got one lucky sucker in our midst!

Dominae

ChrisiusMaximus · September 8, 2003, 17:43

I think youve got one lucky sucker in your midst, hes playing the save game posted by Mountain Sage in another thread which Ive tried and got completely different results with and Toe Truck has been playing and reporting on with yet again different results.

I might be wrong but I think preserve seed is on and I dont think you can change that option in a game once it has been commenced from the set up screens! correct me if Im wrong someone.

vmxa1 · September 8, 2003, 18:22

Well I am a long time out of the programming game, but it occures to me that a disassembler will allow one with the skills and patience to find the offset for the RNG and zap it.
Now saying this as no acusation, just an FYI. Like I said I have no idea if anything funny is involved, only that all the best players I know can not do it. Not even a reasonably skilled warmonger like myself. There fore I am curious and dubious. That does not make anything true, only suspious. Something like 5 archers getting a leader is beyond my understanding and is amazing, no matter how it was done.

Tall Stranger · September 8, 2003, 20:03

I tend to agree. It's one thing to have an unbelievably lucky game or a freaky run of good luck. But my problem is that he has claimed, in other posts, to ALWAYS get unbelievably large numbers of leaders. As I pointed out in another thread, the chances of getting vast numbers of leaders and beating the AI EVERY TIME to a Wonder are astronomical. For example, even if you manage to generate a GL and build, say, the Pyramids, you will have to generate another one incredibly quickly to prevent an AI from switching to, say, the Great Lighthouse or Colossus and beating you to it.

The reality is that, over time, the odds that are hard-coded in the RNG reassert themselves. It's like playing the slots: you may hit it big once or twice, but play long enough and you walk away with just the shirt on your back (if that!).

The key question, fanes7, is: 1) do you reload your games if your elite unit does not generate a leader or if your veteran unit does not get promoted to elite? If so, that's fine. You own the game, so have fun with it. You do, however, have a moral responsibility to say so up front. Failure to do so is blatantly misleading, and risks giving bad advice to new players.

vmxa1 · September 8, 2003, 22:18

Don't forget that the original post was at deity games. Always getting all wonders at deity. I am doing good to get two ancient ones and I will surely not have a leader very often at that stage. Attacking soon enough to get a leader for the first wonder at deity is a serious risk. I have attacked a few time at first contact and those 12 warriors had better be well spread out. If 8 or 9 show up at your capitol, you will be doing a new game.
I get a flash of Pulp Fiction "thats a bold statement" or something like that.
Anyway, I feel a bit bad about jumping on him.

Tall Stranger · September 8, 2003, 22:46

I had forgotten that he said he did this on Diety, which raises yet another serious question about his claim.

I'm also not happy about jumping on him, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. My concern is that he has yet to explain how he accomplishes this ungodly feat without reloading or somehow messing with the program or RNG.

That wouldn't be a big deal, but new players may foolishly follow his advice. I learned a lot about playing by lurking here. I'd hate for other new players to follow the "fanes7 method" at the Diety level, get frustrated by the resulting failure, and quit playing.

Until he explains how his approach is done, I have no real choice but to assume he reloads or otherwise tampers with the game. Again, that's his choice, but not one I think others should follow.

xinyue · September 8, 2003, 22:52

I can predicate fanes7 using some cheating method to get so many leader in the game.

For non-military trait civ, it's rare to get promoted and leader, my experience with Egypt game only few leader generated.

I think fanes7 may consider the repeat save/load a game for get LUCK battle result is not a cheat, am I wrong?

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vmxa1 · September 8, 2003, 23:31

To me it is wrong, but that is not really the issue. What is definetly wrong is to use a non standard method and not mention that fact, if that is what is going on.
IOW, if you reload to do it, that is not right, but at least say that and no will wonder what is happening. They will either think that is fine or it not, but will not ask any explainations. I am not so sure that it can be done that way. If it can it would require a horrendous amount of reloading. That is not my idea of fun, especially when you do not need all the wonders anyway.

fanes7 · September 9, 2003, 00:10

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At the beginning of game, the random seed is saved, it means that : A savefile of the game is fair for the man&computer and other player who participate in this game, there is no the SL problem which you said.

The SL law is a essential formula in a bout-game. For a bout-game, you can't finish it at one time, you always maybe play it one or two hours, and after several days, you keep on playing it by the savefile. That is the bout-game law , you can't change it. In the range of the law , so it can't be cheat , I am a professional&grandmaster player , I hate cheating very much.

Theseus · September 9, 2003, 00:16

xinyue, much of your last post was mangled (translation problems?) for western posters, me at least.

fanes7 is interesting to me. While there are the outstanding issues of gameplay success, GLs, GWs, etc., his/her postings have also indicated a "metagame" view... which I appreciate.

Simple answer: fanes7, will you participate in either the current AU game (209), any previous AU game, or the next AU game? Part of the process would be keeping all saves, posting those requested, and posting detailed During Action Reports (DARs).

I look forward to fanes7 performance as something to learn from.

Or not.

Dominae · September 9, 2003, 00:24

I would rather point fanes7 to the Game of the Month, over at CFC. They are better-equipped and more used to dealing with these kinds of things.

fanes7, if you want to prove your skill, GOTM is the place to do it.

Dominae

Tassadar500 · September 9, 2003, 00:27

Did fanes7 just admit to reloading the save?

fanes7 · September 9, 2003, 00:38

some AU such as no gold for you is a affliction for me, I think the whys player play a game is for happy , not for excruciation or education(being engrafted other's ideology) . so make happy , why not do it ?

I will try some AU , but not all, because some of them is not very good for a player. Can you recommend some interested AU for me ? I am very grateful , thanks !

Master Zen · September 9, 2003, 00:44

Quote:

Originally posted by fanes7
At the beginning of game, the random seed is saved, it means that : A savefile of the game is fair for the man&computer and other player who participate in this game, there is no the SL problem which you said.

The SL law is a essential formula in a bout-game. For a bout-game, you can't finish it at one time, you always maybe play it one or two hours, and after several days, you keep on playing it by the savefile. That is the bout-game law , you can't change it. In the range of the law , so it can't be cheat , I am a professional&grandmaster player , I hate cheating very much.

My issue is the following. I do not doubt that you might have gotten 5 leaders with archers. Sure, it's an incredible stroke of luck but perhaps within the outer bounds of reason. I was chatting about this with Arnelos a few hours ago and he was telling me he once got 3 but recognized it was a one-thing affair and never ever even remotely came close to repeating that feat. Of course I believe him since it is possible.

However, I'm sorry to say that I find this occuring everytime playing Deity to be simply ludicrious. Go look at the reports from GOTM at CFC from their top players and nobody netted all ancient age wonders. And trust me, I've seen some deity games from guys like SirPleb which are simply stunning. And none comes close to matching this feat.

So, again, I don't want to sound like we're dissing off an amazing feat of civving. If you got 5 leaders in this game, I believe you. If you say you always get so many in every deity game, I have no choice but to be a total skeptic and ask for some irrefutable proof. Some of these guys in this forum are very experienced players too so it's not just me who thinks this a wee bit on the exaggerated side.

Master Zen · September 9, 2003, 00:53

Quote:

Originally posted by fanes7
some AU such as no gold for you is a affliction for me, I think the whys player play a game is for happy , not for excruciation or education(being engrafted other's ideology) . so make happy , why not do it ?

I will try some AU , but not all, because some of them is not very good for a player. Can you recommend some interested AU for me ? I am very grateful , thanks !

fanes7,

I think people just want a straight answer (forgetting for a moment if there are laws or if it is right or wrong):

Do you or do you not reload the game to get the results that you want with the leaders?

Again, we're not saying it's wrong since it's a game and you can play as you wish. It isn't cheating either since this is not a competition game and no rules have been officially definied. However, people would like to know if you did things on purpose to provoke such an abnormal # of leaders.

If not, then dammit, tell us how you get them so easily!!?!?!?!

vmxa1 · September 9, 2003, 01:34

Quote:

Originally posted by fanes7
At the beginning of game, the random seed is saved, it means that : A savefile of the game is fair for the man&computer and other player who participate in this game, there is no the SL problem which you said.

The SL law is a essential formula in a bout-game. For a bout-game, you can't finish it at one time, you always maybe play it one or two hours, and after several days, you keep on playing it by the savefile. That is the bout-game law , you can't change it. In the range of the law , so it can't be cheat , I am a professional&grandmaster player , I hate cheating very much.

I am not sure I understand this SL and Law part. Does it mean Save and Load? There are no laws controlling it, just preference and common opinion.
If you mean the RNG is saved at the start and the game is set to preserve it, that is the norm. It does not prohibit reloads and changing of action to alter outcomes, but it does make it more problematic.
So to reiterate what Master Zen asked, are you saying you are not reloading games? I guess I am beating a drum, but I will flat out refuse to believe it is possible to playing any style that guarantees always getting leaders in such a timely fashion as to get all wonders at deity. In fact I doubt it can be done at any level. The only difference is as the lowest levels you can get the wonders with out leaders. At even emperor, I do not see anyone getting all wonders in a straight forward manner. By that I mean no reloads, if you can, then you are indeed a grandmaster, maybe the grandest of them all. I guess someone has to have the title.

xinyue · September 9, 2003, 06:18

I found a thread research for Militaristic trait:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=62902

Quote:

Qitai's post
non-militaristic civ vs. non-barbarians:
conscript to regular: 1 in 2
regular to veteran: 1 in 4
veteran to elite: 1 in 8

This mean you get elite unit for average 8 victories, also explain why I have only few units get to promotion.

Quote:

Raidne's post
Militaristic: 1005 battles 53 GL
Non Militaristic: 1005 battles, 47 GL

This means you get 1GL average 20 victories.

In my game, with only one anchor or warrior I will never try to attack the AI's city defended by a pikeman or two. If I get the victory, it's luck, but in many case it is be a fool for one's pains, the safe attack method I think that at least need 2 times unit I can start the attack. Is it too safe?

Theseus: Sorry for my previous post, it's my first post in Apolyton, I don't know my unbreak statement cause mangled, I will edit the post and try to fix it.

Yahweh Sabaoth · September 9, 2003, 09:56

Jeez guys, isn't it possible that Fanes7 just got really lucky? Besides, he wasn't trying to prove a point really, was he? Just posting a series of screenshots... if he was cheating to prove some sort of argument, then that's one thing, but if he's just cheating on his own, then I say more power to him! I've been playing one game for about a week now, attacking constantly and almost always with elites, and have hardly generated 1 leader to my name. I'd damn well like to cheat!

Sorry to a pisser. I just would hate to see Fanes7 scared away from Apolyton because he thinks everyone hates him.

Arrian · September 9, 2003, 10:34

I'm not making any judgements one way or the other. I've gotten pretty lucky with early leaders (I don't think THAT lucky, though) in my time, so I don't reject the possibility that fanes7 did just get really lucky (in conjunction with using his elite units well).

However, fanes' claims re: getting all wonders on Deity sound outrageous. Look, I have probably as much experience with leader generation as anyone here. I'm a little nutty with it, actually. So I feel I have a pretty good grasp of what can and cannot be done (on a consistent basis).

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · September 9, 2003, 10:43

I'm gonna go ahead and quickly retract my comment before I draw any serious ire.

FANES7, EXPLAIN YOURSELF, YOU CUR!

vmxa1 · September 9, 2003, 11:23

Really, I think people are not being mean, they are mostly just asking. I think most would be happy to know it was true and if it was luck or what. Well it cannot be luck if you can do it every game. It has to be some heretofore unknown strategy or nefarious.

Master Zen · September 9, 2003, 12:24

Quote:

Originally posted by xinyue
In my game, with only one anchor or warrior I will never try to attack the AI's city defended by a pikeman or two. If I get the victory, it's luck, but in many case it is be a fool for one's pains, the safe attack method I think that at least need 2 times unit I can start the attack. Is it too safe?

If you have an archer or a warrior and going to attack an AI city defended by pikemen, don't you think you're a bit behind in techs?

The "calculation" I use when attacking cities is at least twice their defensive strength in attack. So, if I'm going up on a city with 2 spearmen, I will take at least 4 archers to attack it (preferrably more).