Comparison fight US Apolyton vs. German league. - Page 6

Cobra · May 22, 2003, 09:44

OK, then we should make nails with heads: I will play against SmartFart. As date I suggest Wednesday, 28th of mai starting from 10p.m.CET (the next day is a day off for us, so we can play till the end). In addition, I suggest the following settings to SmartFart, but accept all different settings: random map, map size 50*60, large continent, wet, 3 billions, no AI, barbarians from huts only, no city- bribe, no GW, no caravan rehoming, no cheating at all. I don't use the hutfinder. SmartFart can host, if he wants. Restart, if host has starttechs. 1 restart for everyone till 3700 BC, if the starting position is not acceptable.

Woke could play against War4ever. I still have no answer from him. He´s busy during the week.
If Makeo has his new PC, he should give us a sign. His opponent will be max, jes or kotycha. Since the date cannot be specified yet, also the opponent is not certain.

Cobra · May 22, 2003, 10:10

Quote:

Originally posted by SmartFart
It's already thursday and no opponent so far. I was online yestreday but nobody posted or Icq-ed me about that game you ,my German friends, proposed.

What's happening. Sound like a *cooot* to me. ('coot' - noise made by birds,usually chickens or similar creatures).

Cobra...please note me if you like to start our duel tonight or tomorrow. If not...I would like to know in advance because I don't like an idea to spend 3 evenings in a row at home doing nothing

Regards.

SF

Sorry about that. Sometimes I´m 3 days in a row not in my office and most evenings are reserved for my family. Normaly I have to get up at 6 am, so it would be too hard for me to play till 3 am. But 28th it´s possible.
My ICQ doesn´t work at the moment, I´ve troubles with an update so I don´t use it at the moment. I suggest you come in our league-chat http://civ2.org/chat/chat.pl I´m there on monday and on thursday from 8 to 12 pm.
Translation for access:
Benutzername = Username
Passwort = password
Raum = room (choose „Civ2-Halle“)

First of all you have to choose „neuen Benutzer registrieren“ = new User

Especially for you: my new ICQ-Number is now available

War4ever · May 22, 2003, 13:53

yeah weekends are the only time for me, i will be away on vacation for three weeks in about two weeks time...and am pretty busy right now...

with makeo not having his pc yet...the best time for this mini tournament for me would be anytime after june 21st.....

i might be able to squeeze in a game a week from this friday, but not 100% sure of that as of yet....

its a tough push these days at work until i go on vacation...

if we can't wait that long i understand...if so then great....long sessions starting early in the morning for me 6am are best if we want to make any headway..

never know, woke might smoke me

and then i can be demoralized

but i thought it was a 2vs2 or 3vs3 game you guys wanted???????

Cobra · May 22, 2003, 14:04

First, I wanted duels.
Buts it´s fair to make two rounds:
First some duels, then a 3 vs 3 game

War4ever · May 22, 2003, 15:51

ok duels are fine by me...duels end quicker....there are just some games that end up being hopeless quickly....

but your plan sounds good to me

SmartFart · May 22, 2003, 16:27

Cobra:

I agree with everything you proposed.

Wednesday,28th,22.oo CET is just fine.

I am certainly not know as a cheater,or at least never caught doing it

See ya.

SF

StrategicKingMi · May 22, 2003, 17:35

I'll play a mans game 2 x 1 king, 3 team game on a premade board with all members of a team starting on the same cont and in contact with one another from beging of the game. The board should have multiple islands surrounding each of the 2 starting conts and 2 big "inbetween" conts for fighting. Also, a small number of islands should surround the "inbetween conts".
Furthermore, we should have a "wonder draft". This will fairly distribute the wonders to each side and allow each side to determine its strategy. This will also prevent the one giant civ strategy in team games and force all players to grow equally.
Of course no city or unit trading.
Rehoming caravans should be allowed to reduce the uncontrollable luck factor of supply and demand problems.
Perfect team of apoly-gameleague would be
Atawa, The King and Martin (if he can stab his big mouth upity German rookie league in the back.)
I am positive, that under these conditions, there would be no team in the world, let alone inexpierenced Germans who dont play mens games that would even make it to 2000 bc competitively.
Dont agree with me? Then prove me wrong......

War4ever · May 22, 2003, 17:42

and the beat goes on

StrategicKingMi · May 22, 2003, 17:47

Furthermore, want to play me on a duel on my settings?
No one, and I mean no one will beat me , or make it to 1000 bc competitively on my settings. (I have taken yet another giant leap in strategic ability since my last posting. I just got radio by 1000 bc in my latest test game not to mention my entire cont railroaded and the cure for cancer built) This is with a no hut, revealed from start map with a peace period to 1000 bc and a cont built for movement with standerd resource seeding. With 6 islands of various sizes surrounding it.

Hydey · May 22, 2003, 18:52

Strat, you so obviously the King .

and the people all yell out "long live the king, long live King D*ck"

War4ever · May 22, 2003, 22:48

jes · May 23, 2003, 02:08

oh strat, what happend to you? we played fine games, and now all germans are rookies and so on? you founded a duett with eyes? im disappointed, really...

StrategicKingMi · May 23, 2003, 09:55

Your not reading the most important part of my last post.....
"prove me wrong"....
You Germans are the one who started this post..
I read into it a certain arrogance on the part of the German league here.
This is absoloutely false.
You can not say that on your restrictive settings where there is very, very little difference in strategy that you can beat me every single time out.
Contrary, I can say positively, with certainty, that you will lose every time out under my settings.
You all play 1 x 1 deity because you are weak 2 x 2 king wide open game players. And this is fine, for you. But do not try to asert supurirority because I will call you on it all the time.
All you have to do, again, is prove me wrong.......

Ming · May 23, 2003, 10:01

Yeah.. wide open games... but you aren't allowed to attack before 1000 BC...

Hydey · May 23, 2003, 10:02

all bow to the King

jes · May 23, 2003, 10:29

strat, ok, thats another thing.
cobra wrote the the words at the beginning to.. (dont know the expression in english) ..to find apolyton players. its not that we think we are the greatest. in no setting.

the other argument: we play 1x1x diety cause we are weak in 2x2x king. you know, i play all settings. but the setting i love most is 1x1x deity, beat me for that, but so it is.
so please dont say what the reasons are we (or: i) do that and not another thing. i could say much about yours and other players' psychology, cause thats my profession. but i dont do that, cause im here to play civ, not to talk about others (and blame them evry now and then).
you are a great player, i often said that. but this isnt the place to discuss. lets come back to the topic.

War4ever · May 23, 2003, 13:47

strat , i dont think you can claim that if others cannot....seems hypocritical to me.....

and you want games where you can see the starting locations etc etc....how many special rules do you need to perfect this so called strategy

i have no doubt in my mind your a great player.....but your settings are so precise and your maps are so "set" that i question your ability to handle random maps now... ]

after all, exploration is part of the game, as is the random factor, as are barbs, attacking, etc etc....

maybe in team games your the best , or in any game where you get multiple close islands etc etc, but then again, i know many players who could do the same thing in the same amount of time...

adapting..... need i say more ????

atawa · May 23, 2003, 14:12

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
strat , i dont think you can claim that if others cannot....seems hypocritical to me.....

Prove him wrong then

War4ever · May 23, 2003, 15:44

its not about proving him wrong, he wants such a controlled environment... its not really a civ game anymore.... hes taken all the luck out of the game and set up a viable trade strategy...

if i practiced all my civ games on premade maps with set criteria i could claim greatest in the world too....

in no way am i slamming his abilities, we all know of his greatness (he is the 8 time gameleague champ after all) but i think he has too many restrictions .....

plus his turns take forever

StrategicKingMi · May 23, 2003, 15:44

Again, been there done that. I have played and succeded on every setting imaginable.
Why do I like the settings I play now? Because the game, properly played by all players will be fantastic.
I dont play it to win, I play it because I hope to find that player that can keep it competitive till 1000 bc so we can fight with tanks, marines, fighters, bombers, battleships and subs instead of horses and caravels.
A "normal" game will never get there. How do I know?
I have played thousands of normal games and never built a fighter yet.
As far as adapting. I prefer to adapt to new weapon tactics such as i did in my latest game with Martin, who by the way is so close to being this player.
If the game would set up the board interesting and fairly there would be no need for premade boards.

War4ever · May 23, 2003, 15:54

strat i agree with you, the random map blows big time....

but premade maps are used over and over again...so i question their fairness or the thrill of exploration
but i like some of the "luck"
i can live without huts but prefer them,
but i love barbs. they keep civers honest and force them to defend, i see no skill in stumbling across some empty city...sorry no offence....

i want to take that city by force..

how long do your games take to get to the point of tanks.... i agree getting there can be tough, mainly due to the fact that one or two players have huge leads in MP games....

but by not having war before 1000 bc you play the same repetitive thing over again..
yes modern units are fun but at the expense of what????

its fair enough for you to claim your the greatest, and on your settings you probably are....but to me the greatest thing in civ is being able to adapt to your surroundings game in , game out, not relying on the same tired strategy .

we may play on rocks, i would love to make the board bigger, but the terrain is always differnt and so are your neighbors etc.....we have alot of early contact and wars, and they often come with pike/cat combos
or gunpowder/canon/rifle units....sometimes dragoons and calvalry.

yes this isn't modern, but fighting throughout the whole games seems more enjoyable to me..

i guess its a difference of opinion

StrategicKingMi · May 24, 2003, 01:52

If played quickly, you can play for 3 or 4 hours and get to 1000 bc. This is the beauty of not having to build units to explore early, the game moves along extremely fast. My turns take an average of less then 5 mins.
As far as responding to your surroundings, When another civ is armed with all this tech and has his own unique combination of wonders and sends his units out in various numbers in certain areas of the board, it is very intense to be able to meet the challenge imposed by the workings of a devious human mind. You must try certain tactics to try to break through the other players defenses while still maintaing your defensive position.
The game is never the same.
In the first part of the game, you must respond to shifting supply and demand. Balancing wonder building, city construction, infrastrucure such as aquas/sewers, unis, libr. markets and temps and colleseums and roading and then railroading.
In the second part of the game thats when it becomes a true war game, balancing not only the above but now ground, air and naval units.
It is an extremely addictive way to play.
We agree on one thing War, I want to take you out by force, not verse undefended citys. But i disagree with forcing the player to defend every city as it regulates what you can accomplish. I defend my citys far from home figuring that if i can stop you from getting close to them it is by far better then letting vet cannons kil a pop point and the unit and you losing no units.
furthermore, playing my way, you change the important wonders by adding so many more great wonders to the mix.
For example, nobody has ever built shakespheres in a normal game. In this game it is awsome. you stay in democracy, build RRs to that city and rehome about 50 units into that city and then go out and fight with them at no unhappiness problem.
It is a game all about tech, so newtons and obser. are great wonders.(never built in normal games)
Hoover dam is huge. Collusus is very usefull.
The wonders can create many differences in the way you play.
I prefer huts also, i like to hunt them down and get excited by seeing what comes out of them. but the downside is many games are decided not by skill but by the luck of the hut, and if I am going to make an investment of my precious time in a game I do not want to ruin a potentially good game by bad or great hut luck by either me or the other guy. I hate having victories tainted by huts as much as loses caused by them.
and nobody wants to play with my do-over rule that I posted a couple of years back. In which, you get a number of turn do-overs where you ask the game to be saved, open the huts that turn, see what you get and if it is awfull use one of your do-overs and go back to the save. time consuming, but so is ruining a game with awfull huts.

Hydey · May 24, 2003, 02:04

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
My turns take an average of less then 5 mins.

Even deity does not take that long in the BC years.

if thats the average and you start the first few moving ne unit and hitting enter (2 seconds) to get the the 5 minute average you must be taking 20 minutes a turn.

War4ever · May 24, 2003, 02:13

I beg to differ on a few points..namely cops and isssacs...huge in our games......

the time is an issue as well....obviously your earliest bc years don't take much time. but that means the later years do

your hut thing is interesting, but would be abused....... as many other rules are by great players....

again, i don't doubt your skill, but i doubt your beliefs in what you claim is a great civ game....

but too each his own and i am glad you have fun....

DrSpike · May 24, 2003, 07:49

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
its not about proving him wrong, he wants such a controlled environment... its not really a civ game anymore.... hes taken all the luck out of the game and set up a viable trade strategy...

Spot on. Besides the Germans started this thread to set up 1x1x deity duels predominantly, so anyone wishing to claim greatness should claim it for that, and back it up. But the games with DD probably ended that chance.

Hydey · May 24, 2003, 07:59

good point doc.

War4ever · May 24, 2003, 12:29

Strate, i think the biggest complaint most have is that no matter what settings your talking about and you have talked about many, you claim that it is the greatest and requires the most skill.

the game at any level requires skill and choices....and we all tailor our choices around things that make it fun for us and challenging at the same time.

your a great civer, and have brought alot of style and strategy to the game....but remember not everyone shares your views on what the greatest civ game at the moment is....

you can tell by the diversity of the settings that people have their preferences....and challenges are great, but challenges need to have their rules tweaked too.

you talk about time investment, my time is precious too...waiting 15 min a turn in a duel while you move caravans around isn't agood investment of time for me...

EVEN if i were to learn something new from playing you... i like my games fast, not ending fast, but played fast....

we all know this game like the back of our hands..blah blah blah...how hard is it to move a couple of units or send some vans etc....

do you prework cities on your turn??? b/c that slows the game down?

we need to play ....i would love to disect one of your games

StrategicKingMi · May 24, 2003, 16:14

In 1 x 1 deity, turns might take a min or less but it takes 10 turns to = what you get done in 1 turn of my prefered game. thus any way you slice it, it takes much less time to play then a 1 x 1 deity game that might get to this point.
I choose this type of game, not because it is supurior to any other style, but rather that it allows a quick move through the tech tree and combat with modern day units, and a large force of them at that.
When I say a "normal" I refer to 2 x 2 king duels primarily, and only on games I have been a part of or saves I Have been sent by my friends. (sad isnt it)
I am still just posting here waiting to find someone who might be interested in this type of game, and using the failed tactic of goating players into a game, but Ill keep trying cause it usually spices up an Apolyton thread and gets 70 responses.....

StrategicKingMi · May 24, 2003, 16:18

War, we have played a game. I am 1 and 0 verse you, but I believe the game ended mostly due to huts. I would be happy to play your way (as long as it isnt 1 x 1 deity) set a time, Ill be there.....

War4ever · May 25, 2003, 00:00

yeah.... your hut luck was the deciding factor, but when i went over the saves, i saw your skill

your a great player....maybe we can get a game going sometime ...do you have icq, i have your number or old one IIRC..but never see you on?