Stupid patriotic Americans

[Whaleboy]

Patriotism is a form of ignorance.... a nation is just a series of pieces of paper. The concepts behind it are subjective, and while they may be best for a people at a certain time, they are entirely subjective, and must be dynamic in order to change, and such notions are unfortunately absent in the USA.

Ignorance is of course, the final defence against logic and reason. Leads me to believe that the greatest fear of the American consciousness is that their nation will turn out to be a phenomenon, not a civilisation, which certainly manifests itself in the blind patriotism, and ethnocentric, geocentric, and sometimes even xenophobic attitudes to others... the French being an example. They use their right in the UN, which they are perfectly entitled to do (for better or worse, I am not discussing Iraq here), and America has an irrational, emotional, short-sighted, harmfull reaction to them. Suchlike will only result in America hurting itself, it should not take itself too seriously, after all, it is a piece of paper, its citizens are humans first, Americans second, and as such should recognise their own subjectivity, and thus realise that just because something can be done, is no justification for it TO be done.

[Spiffor]

Elijah :

Even if I think it is stupid of being proud of his country, I think it is healthy of liking it. Nations are much more than pieces of paper : nations bear and help the cultural differences towards the others, they have a specific feel attached to them, and are the most important bearing of one's collective identity (which is a significant part of one's identity overall).

I too fancied myself as a "citizen of the world" until I actually left home and went to live abroad (in Germany, while I'm French). It is in Germany that I understood how much my Frenchness was much more than the nationality field on my ID. I'm not a patriot and don't pretend of being 'proud' of my country. However, I am quite the 'Uber-French' here in the OT, because I know and claim that my biases have partly to do with my nationality and the culture attached to it, and I want everyone to know where my biases come from.

[johncmcleod]

Can I get a list of the major evil things our government has done? I know have done a lot of bad stuff but I haven't really researched any of it. The history teachers never talk of it.

Is there anywhere I can get a well structured, not too anti-American paper on why not to go to war with Iraq with all of the reasons and not just some?

Is there something just like that for why we should go to war? I'd like to compare them.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Senor Llera
And just for the record, yes, Cuba is a one-party repressive, bureacratic dictatorship. (In all fairness however, just how repressive they would be if the US gov were not constantly harrassing it for 40+ years, if the CIA did not commit economic sabatoge, if assasinations on Castro and other leaders were not constantly attempted, and if CIA-backed Miami exile violence were brought to justice, remains to be seen)

We may never know....... which of course, was the idea.


But no pro US gov. parrot can sincerely critisize Castro's "abuses" while not looking like an extreme hypocrite for supporting FAR worse.

"Jane, you ignorant slut!" Right, blame it all on the US.

In the Cold War the US government, in 7 of 10 cases, backed the non-communists against the communists. Of them only Trujillo, Batista, and Somoza received more than nominal financial and covert intelligence aid in order to come to power. The other 30% were one hypernationalist against another, and it probably wouldn't have made any difference which one got US support.

Show me where and when the US opposed genuine democratic, free market, govts and you'd have a point. No attempts were made to overthrow or assassinate Castro after Bay of Pigs, and the only thing Miami exiles do is air and sea patrols of the Florida Straights looking for people trying to escape Cuba.

If you want to whine about the sorry state of LAm look in the mirror (assuming you are Latino, rather than some Euroweenie whose intervention in LAm would be just as unwelcome). The corrupt socialism that dominates would get nowhere if it weren't supported from within. All we do is give financial support in proportion to how much that government agrees with our strategic interests, especially drug interdiction.

[Straybow]

Is there anywhere I can get a well structured, not too anti-American paper on why not to go to war with Iraq with all of the reasons and not just some?

Doubt it. Almost every argument descended into naked anti-Americanism in milliseconds, from the wildly overblown casualty estimates to Republicans-just-want-oil idiots.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Ned
Senor, name me one country in Latin America that has a "good" government, a government that is truly democratic, a government that protects property and also provides a social safety-net?

Belize. Of course, it is English rather than "Latin."

[johncmcleod]

originally posted by: Straybow
Doubt it. Almost every argument descended into naked anti-Americanism in milliseconds, from the wildly overblown casualty estimates to Republicans-just-want-oil idiots.

Yeah this one anti-American guy against told me how evil the US because of "US sanctions that killed millions of Iraqis." Those were UN sanction not US sanctions. Der.

Most of the average pro-war ones are way worse though in that regard though. One time I told someone I was against the war and she freaked out talked to me in this really condescending manner and said: "Do you realize Saddam has killed over 2 million of his own people?! His own people!" Those were the sanctions that killed that many. Saddam only killed tens of thousands. I wonder where she got that estimate from. Bush?

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Straybow

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned Senor, name me one country in Latin America that has a "good" government, a government that is truly democratic, a government that protects property and also provides a social safety-net?

Belize. Of course, it is English rather than "Latin."

Belize doesn't have a good social safty net; the people live in poverty. At least it is nation of laws though and they've always been a democracy.

Costa Rica is a very nice place and there's no worries about a military take over since they did away with the Army several decades ago.

Trinadad and Tabago is in the same boat as Belieze. Small and por but peaceful and democratic.

I'm not sure about Uruguay but they might fit the bill of a democratic, peaceful country with a decent safety net.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Straybow
If you want to whine about the sorry state of LAm look in the mirror (assuming you are Latino, rather than some Euroweenie whose intervention in LAm would be just as unwelcome). The corrupt socialism that dominates would get nowhere if it weren't supported from within. All we do is give financial support in proportion to how much that government agrees with our strategic interests, especially drug interdiction.

Just proves how little you really know about Latin America...

There is only 1 socialist country in the region: Cuba. Venezuela is a poorly intentioned leftist populist state, and only a few months ago did Lula's Brazil jump into the leftist bandwagon.

3 out of 30 countries... yeah that's a dominant ideology...

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Oerdin
...

Costa Rica is a very nice place and there's no worries about a military take over since they did away with the Army several decades ago.

...

Yeah, as far as tourism concerns, Costa Rica is a place I consider going. Just imagine deep-sea fishing in two oceans the same day. But there is a saying "A country always has an army, their own or someone else's". Who is the "someone else's" in Costa Rica? US or Cuba I presume, but I don't know...

[Master Zen]

Costa Rica is a BEAUTIFUL place, I had the fortune of living there for 6 years, and I loved every day of it. I hope anyone who reads this can visit such a lovely little country

[Ted Striker]

Man FORGET ABOUT Central America.

Let's get back to what this thread is about.

USA! USA! USA!

[Kramerman]

*drools on self...*
USA! USA! USA!

[Senor Llera]

I know this quote is in my signature, but it richly applies to this post:

"The nationalist does not only ignore atrocities committed by his own side, but has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them" - George Orwell

In the Cold War the US government, in 7 of 10 cases, backed the non-communists against the communists. Of them only Trujillo, Batista, and Somoza received more than nominal financial and covert intelligence aid in order to come to power.

Pinochet?? Pinochet was installed by the US gov. after the CIA collaborated with the Chilean military to overthrow a democratically elected goverment. A wee bit more than nominal don't ya think?

The US has spent millions in (corrupt) elections all over Latin America to make sure "our boy" wins. And remember, pouring in millions by Latin American standards does a lot more than it would in the US.

The US has trained many a dictator's death squads at the notorious School of the Americas. It has turned a blind eye towards dozens of barbaric regimes all over the world, infiltrated political parties/movements/civic organizations/church groups that might be a threat to "our boy"

The CIA has been known to give enemy lists of "subversives" to fascist dictators knowing full well that they would be rounded up, jailed, tortured, and that many would die. They did this in the Dominican Republic, Chile, Guatemala, and Argentina to name but a few.

One of the more truly inhuman examples of US foreign policy came in Indonesia, where a democratically elected gov. of Sukarno was overthrown and Suharto was installed. He began his rule by externminating 500,000 of his own people then invaded the former Portugese colony of East Timor where he wiped out another 200,000 persons in a nation whose total population was only 600,000. Oh, and before Mr. "nominal support" comes crowing, the US gave the Indonesia gov. 90% of its arms during this period.

Show me where and when the US opposed genuine democratic, free market, govts and you'd have a point.

Italy in 48. Greece in 64. Indonesia under Sukarno in 65. Guatemala in 54, (where a completely democratic gov. was overthrown by the CIA and installed a truly, vicious, genocidal tyrant)

Dominican Republic under Bosch in 1966. Jamaica under Manley in 80. Australia in 75. (US gov along with British gov. use a colonial-era law to remove a democratically elected gov.)

Haiti from 1950s- 1994. US supports Papa and Baby Doc Duvalier. (They were also devout believers in voodoo...... try reading what happened to the Haitian people on a bad day)

Iran in 54. Making it safe for the King of Kings. Democratically elected gov out. Shah installed.

Note that these are, albeit just a few, examples of where we have openly overthown/perverted democracy. This does not include instances where we "only" supported a ruthless regime without perverting democracy, because frankly, there was none to pervert.

No attempts were made to overthrow or assassinate Castro after Bay of Pigs

You are either a liar or terribly misinformed.

1961 - Bay of Pigs

1963 - the CIA cooked up a plot to kill Castro with an exploding cigar. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2190303.stm

1961 - 1964 CIA launches Operation Mongoose - a campaign of terror and subversion against Cuba which would include - bombing sugar mills, factories, contaminating sugar production, and numerous assasination attempts on Fidel Castro, Che Guevera, and other government leaders.

"President Castro: reputedly survived 600 CIA assassination attempts" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/...es/1203299.stm

And please remember, this is ONLY what has been declassified. Operation Mongoose has YET to be fully declassified. And thats over 40 years old, who knows what the CIA has been up to during the last 20-30 years in Cuba.

Why are they declassfied in the first place then? Because one of the few bright spots in recent US history, thanks to the public outcry in the post-Watergate era, a courageous Senator decided to call CIA agents to testify and release non-critical documents to see what they have been up to. Known as the Church committee hearings. And find out we did........

Ever heard of Operation Northwoods? Since its pretty clear that nationalists and "uber-patriots" (And not just US ones, this goes for everybody) always seem to find ways to excuse or stay ignorant of their own atrocities, how about some concern for your fellow Americans?

Northwoods was approved in the early 60s by the National Security Agency to find ways to start a war with Cuba. (Remember The Maine Act II) The plans included the following:

"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba"

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes , blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

Source - ABC News http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...fs_010501.html

(PS - I hate to use the corporate mainstream as my sources, but given the lack of elementary knowledge of the seedier sides of US history, I feel it is necessary since it is the only medium of truth for so many)

and the only thing Miami exiles do is air and sea patrols of the Florida Straights looking for people trying to escape Cuba.

Uh, the FBI disagrees with you.................

"The FBI considered both Remón and Novo as principal figures in Omega 7, an anti-Castro group that a federal prosecutor once called "one of the most dangerous, most vicious and most feared terrorist groups in U.S. history.''

Source - http://www.cubanet.org/Cnews/y00/nov00/20e4.htm And
The New York Times, 3 March 1980, p. 1.

Omega 7. Alpha 66. CORU. Comandos L. Look up these names. All Cuban-exile terrorist organizations, admittedly so by your own FBI. But I guess when their names ain't Muhammad and their not bombing New York, who cares, right? Right.

Thanks for the laugh though! You said something I knew I could prove with your very own government!

Right, blame it all on the US.

Wrong to the bitter end... I did not blame the US for Cuba's repression, I blame the US for making it unclear as to exactly how repressive Cuba would have been if not for our hostility against it. Given the rich history of US interventions in Cuba and Latin America, fear of US aggression is a reasonable argument Cuba can make and I fault the US for allowing it to be made in the first place.

And no I am not a "Euroweenie" as you put it. I am an American by birth. You see, there are many things I love about this country, but our foreign policy ain't one of them. I long for the day where I can go to anywhere in the world and be proud of what my government is doing.

Respecting human rights and democracy in ALL situations, not just when United Fruit Co. feels its being taxed too much in Guatemala or when a neo-con from the National Security Agency says so and so is a Commie.

This has been our policy no matter if a Rep. or Dem. is elected, therefore a fundamental change is required.

No, I don't expect the US to "save" Latin America or the world for that matter, but I also don't expect it to destory it either.

Perhaps the next country to "liberate" is the USA.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Man FORGET ABOUT Central America.

Let's get back to what this thread is about.

USA! USA! USA!

Except if you want to prove that mankind indeed originates from the chimps, I still don't understand why you keep posting this pic

[Az]

Hey, now! She's cute in this pic.

[Spiffor]

Nah, her chin is waaaaaaaay to much in the forefront. Chimp-like feat if you ask me. The rest isn't gorgeous as well, and the poor colour choice makes her really slut-like as well (this red leather pants )

I'm sure any 'patriotic' girl cheering the US troops back in the 1940's was hotter than this

[Az]

What's wrong with slut-like?

"Sluts" are just women that are free about their sexuality.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel
What's wrong with slut-like?

"Sluts" are just women that are free about their sexuality.

I don't know whether "free" is the precisely correct word to use in here.

[Ned]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Can I get a list of the major evil things our government has done? I know have done a lot of bad stuff but I haven't really researched any of it. The history teachers never talk of it.

Is there anywhere I can get a well structured, not too anti-American paper on why not to go to war with Iraq with all of the reasons and not just some?

Is there something just like that for why we should go to war? I'd like to compare them.

John, I'm really beginning to wonder about you.

[Ned]

Originally posted by johncmcleod


Yeah this one anti-American guy against told me how evil the US because of "US sanctions that killed millions of Iraqis." Those were UN sanction not US sanctions. Der.

Most of the average pro-war ones are way worse though in that regard though. One time I told someone I was against the war and she freaked out talked to me in this really condescending manner and said: "Do you realize Saddam has killed over 2 million of his own people?! His own people!" Those were the sanctions that killed that many. Saddam only killed tens of thousands. I wonder where she got that estimate from. Bush?

John, I have seen estimates that the Ba'ath party has murdered and tortured up to 3 million people since they came to power in the late sixties. Why do you suggest that Saddam has killed and tortured "only" tens of thousands and that the rest died because of "the sanctions." The sanctions did not go into place until 1991. The killing has been going down since the late sixties.

[Az]

Originally posted by Ned


I don't know whether "free" is the precisely correct word to use in here.

would you prefer "open" ?

I am waiting for your suggestions btw.

[Ned]

Senor Llera, I will not go through your long list of propaganda. I shall address just the first item to demostrate that you are so full of comminist "sh!t" as to be completely ignorable.

You said that the CIA installed Pinochet. You cite the Church report as your authority. (Actually Che did this as well not that long ago.) However, the Church committee report concluded that the CIA had nothing to do with Pinochet. Moreover, as soon as his attrocities became known, president Ford cut off military aid. Relations between the US and Pinochet were actually quite hostile.

The CIA's own report also conclude the same.

There is no evidence, save communist propaganda, that the US had anything to do with Pinochet.

[Az]

then what was Powell apologizing for?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel


would you prefer "open" ?

I am waiting for your suggestions btw.

I think the apt term is "promiscuous."

[JCG]

Excessive patriotism, whether it comes from the USA or any other nation is always a bad thing. Self-criticism is healthy, and in the long run helps to improve the country and its people far more than "GO USA" flag-waving does.

[Ted Striker]

Go USA gets the troops (who are risking their lives to keep us safe) to the finish line and back safe and sound.

[Az]

Originally posted by Ned


I think the apt term is "promiscuous."

You say it like it's a bad thing.

[Ned]

JCG, "excessive" anything is not good. We learned this from Aristotle, I believe.

Excessive patriotism, excessive pacifism, excessive self-hatred, excesive anti-Americanism, excessive religious fervor, etc., etc., etc. are all bad - for the same reason.

The question is not whether excessive patriotism is good, but whether American patriotism is good or bad, relatively speaking. The only way to answer this question is to see what America stands for and why most, but clearly not all, Americans are patriotic.

[Senor Llera]

This is too funny:

the CIA had nothing to do with Pinochet. Relations between the US and Pinochet were actually quite hostile.

Have you seen any of the documents the CIA declassfied in 1999??

"CIA Acknowledges Ties to Pinochet’s Repression
Report to Congress Reveals U.S. Accountability in Chile"

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20000919/

Excerpts from the report -

After twenty-seven years of withholding details about covert activities following the 1973 military coup in Chile, the CIA released a report yesterday acknowledging its close relations with General Augusto Pinochet’s violent regime. The report, “CIA Activities in Chile,” revealed for the first time that the head of the Chile’s feared secret police, DINA, was a paid CIA asset in 1975, and that CIA contacts continued with him long after he dispatched his agents to Washington D.C. to assassinate former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his 25-year old American associate, Ronni Karpen Moffitt.

According to Peter Kornbluh, director of the National Security Archive’s Chile Documentation Project, the CIA report “represents a major step toward ending the 27-year cover-up of Washington’s covert ties to Pinochet’s brutal dictatorship.” Kornbluh called on the CIA “to take the next step by declassifying all the documents used in the report, including the full declassification of the CIA’s first intelligence report on the Letelier assassination, dated October 6, 1976.”

Within a year of the coup, the CIA was aware of bilateral arrangements between the Pinochet regime and other Southern Cone intelligence services to track and kill opponents—arrangements that developed into Operation Condor.

The CIA made a payment of $35,000 to a group of coup plotters in Chile after that group had murdered the Chilean commander-in-chief, Gen. Rene Schneider in October 1970—a fact that was apparently withheld in 1975 from the special Senate Committee investigating CIA involvement in assassinations. The report says the payment was made “in an effort to keep the prior contact secret, maintain the good will of the group, and for humanitarian reasons.”

The CIA has an October 25, 1973 intelligence report on Gen. Arellano Stark, Pinochet’s right-hand man after the coup, showing that Stark ordered the murders of 21 political prisoners during the now infamous “Caravan of Death.” This document is likely to be relevant to the ongoing prosecution of General Pinochet, who is facing trial for the disappearances of 14 prisoners at the hands of Gen. Stark’s military death squad.

BBC World News - "Chile security chief was CIA informer"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/932897.stm

"US 'undermined Chile's democracy'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1022347.stm

CNN - "CIA reveals 1970s role with Chilean intelligence chief" http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/09/20/cia.chile/

The Guardian - "CIA files on Pinochet released"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Pinochet_o...205061,00.html