Arab terrorists are at it again.

[Pekka]

Just saw some footage of explosion sites.. they were carrying lots of explosives! Or driving that is. This is bad.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Gepap: I haven't gushed about anyone and, yes, as bad as that situation is it is still the best we can hope for.

Hardly. As long as we think so we can;t move ahead.

[Ned]

On a positive note, it appears to take al Qa'ida nine to ten months to organize a major attack. We had a major attack on September 11 2001, another one last year in Bali, and now this one in Riyadh. We should not expect another attack like this for another nine months.

Also, I do not see how such an attack can lead to an al Qa'ida takeover of Saudi Arabia. They need to take out the royal family. I believe such an attack on the royal family was organized, but it was frustrated by the Saudi authorities.

However, this terrorist attack may be effective in driving foreigners out of Saudi Arabia, most particularly the Americans. Such would not be good for Saudi Arabia economically. Without foreigners present, al Qa'ida may also be weakened because their basic argument is that foreigners defile the soil, the holy soil of the land of Mecca in Medina..

[Andrew1999]

President Bush said Tuesday that those responsible for suicide bombings in Saudi Arabia that left dozens of people dead, including seven Americans, would "learn the meaning of American justice."

We already know the meaning of American justice: blow up a bunch of stuff with cruise missiles, send a few Special Forces to run around, let everone important get away, get bored, leave.

[Oerdin]

Ned: Didn't Al Qaeda plot to blow up Western Ships in the straights of Gibraltar a while back? Also there was the buffolo cell which the FBI broke up and I believe the Pakis stopped an embassy suicide plane attack earlier this year.

These guys are hatching all sorts of plots but it seems most of them get broken up before they can pull them off.

[muxec]

The terrorists have proven again, that they fight against humanity, and not for Islam. And not against zionism/americanism.

[Ned]

The, let's say they have about nine months between successful attacks.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Andrew1999


We already know the meaning of American justice: blow up a bunch of stuff with cruise missiles, send a few Special Forces to run around, let everone important get away, get bored, leave.

Almost, "wag the dog." Everything driven off of media coverage.

What we really need is for our politicians to understand the political capital value of a show trial. Then we would see some arrests, wouldn't we?

[muxec]

Originally posted by Ned
The, let's say they have about nine months between successful attacks.

What do you mean saying "successful attack"? 50+ killed? Hours of TV news?

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Ned


Almost, "wag the dog." Everything driven off of media coverage.

What we really need is for our politicians to understand the political capital value of a show trial. Then we would see some arrests, wouldn't we?

Yeah, right now we only give secret military trials which are completely anti-climactic.

[Oerdin]

I have yet to hear of anyone actually being given a military tribunal and I didn't know they were supposed to be secret. Last I heard they were just going to be a military court and not a civilian court.

[gsmoove23]

Hey, a little hyperbole never hurt anyone. Not sure, but I think they are supposed to be secret, and if so how would you know whats gone on?

[Panag]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


True, however... as long as there's a history of oppression that unites them, in the immediate term there's more of a sense of common cause (by whatever means to advance that cause) than there is of separate identity.

Subverting them and exploiting their differences will take time.

hi ,

huh , we allready did so , ....

but you just cant compare them with each other , ....

panag thinks of the time he called his Iranian muslim neighbor an arab and got a dish flying his way , .....

have a nice day

[Ming]

I guess this needs to be bumped since SOMEBODY missed it

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Ming
I guess this needs to be bumped since SOMEBODY missed it

I even linked to that thread you closed last night, but you closed this one before it finished posting!



ACK!

[Oerdin]

In more recent news 16 European tourists, who were held hostage by an Algerian terrorist group that is connected to Al-Qaeda, where rescued by Algerian commandos. 16 more hostages are still missing.

The complete story http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa...sts/index.html

Why anyone sain western would go on vacation in an Arab country is beyond me.

[Sava]

What about Egypt? I think it's stupid for the threat of terrorism to keep me away from the Pyramids and other Ancient Egyptian archeological sites.

[Oerdin]

You can go see the pyramids if you don't mind risking being kidnapped, shot at, or assaulted.

Much better to visit Europe, Latin America, East Asia, or (the more peaceful) parts of Africa. The south Pacific is always nice too.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
In more recent news 16 European tourists, who were held hostage by an Algerian terrorist group that is connected to Al-Qaeda, where rescued by Algerian commandos. 16 more hostages are still missing.

The complete story http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa...sts/index.html

Why anyone sain western would go on vacation in an Arab country is beyond me.

I wasn't aware of an Al-Qaeda linked terrorist group in Algeria. It is the first time I hear of this group, so it appears the Armed Islamic Group (the main terrorist organization behing Algeria's civil war) is not this one

And I wouldn't hesitate to go to north Africa as a tourist. The terrorist threat is much lower than in the ME (it is the first time I ever hear of an Al-Qaeda linked group west of Lybia), and the sights there are impressive. Reall,y when I went in the Tunisian desert, it was among the most beautifuls travels in my life
(besides, my parents visited all north African countries except Lybia, and have never had any problems - as a matter of fact, they had mor eproblems in Italy )

[Oerdin]

I'm willing to bet you went before 9/11 and the run up to war in Iraq. "The Algerian Army said the freed tourists had been held by the Salafist Group for Call and Combat, known by the French acronym GSPC. "

[Spiffor]

Indeed. But in Algeria, terrorism was a big deal way before Sept. 11, since there was a quasi civil war for about 10 years, which has killed tens of thousands of people (almost exclusively Algerians - the French had a taste of it druing the 1995 attacks).

Terrorism in Algeria is extremely mild today compared to what it used to be during the civil war.

[Gangerolf]

the pyramids should be moved to somewhere safe, like Yukon

[Oerdin]

Yeah, your right things have calmed down a bit. Still Algeria has one of the highest incidences of terrorism in any country of the world. Certainly a top 5.

[Gangerolf]

I wouldn't go to Algeria now.

OTOH, I went to Tunisia and felt perfectly safe there. Carthage was great:b. EXTREMELY annoying salesmen though. They were literally yelling at me from across the street. Like I want a fudging camel t-shirt or a miniature waterpipe.

[Oerdin]

I friend of mine went to Tunisa a few years ago and she said she loved it. Personally, I'd rather go to India, Brazil, or Cuba before any Arab country though.

I prefer to spend my money in places where people don't hate me or my culture.

[Az]

Algerian muslim terrorists- Barbarian scum of the earth, that has lost all human image, one of the groups of people I would kill, without remorse. I've seen too much snuff movies.

Algier_convoy_ambush_soldier_decapitation.avi
Algier_soldier_begging.avi
Chechniya_cutting_off_fingers.mpg
kill_colloborator_gaza.avi
Afghanistan_soldier_execution.avi
Chechniya_scalping_russian_soldier.mpg
chechniya_slave_kill.avi
Pakistan_daniel_pearl_uncensored[DivX].avi
.
.
.
.


I would cleanse the earth of their filth. Them and their followers, the likes of clearguidance.com.




sigh.

[Oerdin]

It's interesting to discuss the root causes of terrorism. Traditionally, it was thought that poverty and lack of education was the root cause but in the last few years we've found that people who were educated actually were MORE likely to become Ismalic militants then their less educated peers in many Arab countries. I recall hearing a figure that something around 2/3s of Saudi's have college degrees but 1/3 of them majored in Islamic studies!

To me this is astounding. That roughly 1/4 of the population is trained to be a mullah and is indoctrinated in Wahabism. That's some scary stuff. Mean while the BBC has an interesting article that just about every technical job in the kingdom of SA is filled by foreign (mostly western but some Asian) workers because Saudi schools just can't seem to turn out quality trained personnel in any of the fields which an industrial society needs (engineers, scientists, MBAs, economists, etc..). Shouldn't the Saudi government discourage (by not paying for a free education) students from going into economically worthless areas (such as religious studies) and encourage a few of it's young people into becoming the trained professionals who will lead them out of the backwards state they are currently in?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It's interesting to discuss the root causes of terrorism. Traditionally, it was thought that poverty and lack of education was the root cause but in the last few years we've found that people who were educated actually were MORE likely to become Ismalic militants then their less educated peers in many Arab countries. I recall hearing a figure that something around 2/3s of Saudi's have college degrees but 1/3 of them majored in Islamic studies!

To me this is astounding. That roughly 1/4 of the population is trained to be a mullah and is indoctrinated in Wahabism. That's some scary stuff. Mean while the BBC has an interesting article that just about every technical job in the kingdom of SA is filled by foreign (mostly western but some Asian) workers because Saudi schools just can't seem to turn out quality trained personnel in any of the fields which an industrial society needs (engineers, scientists, MBAs, economists, etc..). Shouldn't the Saudi government discourage (by not paying for a free education) students from going into economically worthless areas (such as religious studies) and encourage a few of it's young people into becoming the trained professionals who will lead them out of the backwards state they are currently in?

We in the West have grown up in systems where the primary motivation for revolution was based upon Marxist class struggle concepts. Naturally, when we saw similar revolutions going on in Islamic countries, we assumed that their motivations were similar. But as you say, Islamic fundamentalism is very little to do with a class struggle. It has everything to do with the Islamic faith. Their hatred of traditional Islam is entirely based upon religion. Ditto, their hatred of the West. Our culture and our religion, or a lack of religion, are an anathema to the Islamic fundamentalists.

I think the left in the West has increasingly come to realize that they share no common ground with Islamic revolutionaries and that their liberal culture and anti-religionism is just as much an anathema to the Islamic fundamentalists as are anyone else in the West.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Ned
I think the left in the West has increasingly come to realize that they share no common ground with Islamic revolutionaries and that their liberal culture and anti-religionism is just as much an anathema to the Islamic fundamentalists as are anyone else in the West.

There is one common thread that goes through both the ideologies of both islamic fundamentalists and western leftists-Imperialism. Both of them tend to blame Imperialism for the worlds problems. I've noticed that some Western leftists tend to apologize for the terrorists because of this. Not me though. I think people are more responsible for their own economic situation than they like to take credit for. If the terrorists would worry more about what they would do to make their societies better than worrying about the US and the rest of the West does to them they would be much better off.

[Arrian]

From ArabNews (Saudi):

Editorial: The Enemy Within
14 May 2003



Words are inadequate to express the shock, the revulsion, the outrage at the suicide bombings in Riyadh. Are expatriates working here an army of occupation, to be slaughtered and terrorized into leaving?

This was an undertaking of sheer evil. Life — be it the life of Muslims, of Saudis, of Westerners, of anyone — is sacred, a gift from God. It was targeted as much against Saudi Arabia as against Westerners — not just because Saudis and Westerners alike have been killed and maimed but because the prime aim of those responsible for this despicable crime is to create panic and terror. Those responsible are the new fascists. Merciless, cold and full of hate, with a demented vision of Islam, they declared war on humanity for the thoroughly un-Islamic goal of separating and insulating the Muslim world from the rest of humanity, as part of which they hope to terrorize Westerners into leaving the Kingdom. They have no qualms about killing anyone who gets in their way; they spread hatred and resentment, not peace; yet they have the blasphemous effrontery to claim that they do God’s work. They make a mockery of Islam, an open, inclusive faith.

We have to face up to the fact that we have a terrorist problem here. Last week’s Interior Ministry announcement that 19 Al-Qaeda members, 17 of them Saudis, had planned terrorist attacks in the country and were being hunted was a wake-up call — particularly to those who steadfastly refuse to accept that individual Saudis or Muslims could ever do anything evil, who still cling to the fantasy that Sept. 11 and all the other attacks laid at the doors of terrorists who happen to be Arab or Muslim were in fact the work of the Israelis or the CIA. For too long we have ignored the truth. We did not want to admit that Saudis were involved in Sept. 11. We can no longer ignore that we have a nest of vipers here, hoping that by doing so they will go away. They will not. They are our problem and we all their targets now.

It goes without saying that those responsible, those who poisoned the minds of the bombers, those who are planning to become bombers, must be tracked down and crushed — remorselessly and utterly. But crushing them will not be enough. The environment that produced such terrorism has to change. The suicide bombers have been encouraged by the venom of anti-Westernism that has seeped through the Middle East’s veins, and the Kingdom is no less affected. Those who gloat over Sept. 11, those who happily support suicide bombings in Israel and Russia, those who consider non-Muslims less human than Muslims and therefore somehow disposable, all bear part of the responsibility for the Riyadh bombs.

We cannot say that suicide bombings in Israel and Russia are acceptable but not in Saudi Arabia. The cult of suicide bombings has to stop. So too has the chattering, malicious, vindictive hate propaganda. It has provided a fertile ground for ignorance and hatred to grow.

There is much in US policy to condemn; there are many aspects of Western society that offend — and where necessary, Arab governments condemn. But anti-Americanism and anti-Westernism for their own sake are crude, ignorant and destructive. They create hate. They must end. Otherwise there will be more barbarities.

-Arrian