Emperor tech race advice needed?

peterfharris · May 13, 2003, 20:42

I find that I lose emperor games because I fall too far behind on tech. I can catch up and be a tech leader but at some point the leading AI civs just surge ahead in tech (after expiry of Great Library). BTW My empire is usually about middle sized.

By the late ancient times I normally have either Collussus or the Great Library and can swap and sell techs (for small sums) and am a tech leader, sometimes the leader.

Invariably, at some point therafter the AI leaders get their act together (puts in marketplaces and libraries all over the place so it has lots of money and research capacities) and surges ahead. In next to no time I go from being able to tech whore to finding that they already have my newly discovered tech (and several techs I don't have) so I have nothing to swap or sell. They then proceed to get further and further ahead.

The smaller AI civs tend to have little money so I can't get much selling to them. Lately I have been experimenting with giving them some tech to build marketplaces so they will have more money to buy more tech from me so I have more money for rearch and tech purchases. This is helping me but is not nearly enough to enable me to get back into the tech lead.

My question is how do I manage this middle age AI tech surge so I don't suddenly get left behind? Is there a peaceful solution? (I can arrange to dogpile someone and presumably I could extort some tech out of that dogpile but I don't like the extortion approach).

Advice appreciated. This has got me stuffed.

vmxa1 · May 13, 2003, 21:07

I will let the more thoughtful and articulate give their sage perspective, but...
I find that about the time of education (end of GL) you should be getting your empire core built up. That is many of the structures that you intend to have such as libs and marketplaces done. You need to have grabbed enough land to be in the hunt for the number of cities that most others have and hopefully you have an army that is not weak compared to many other civs.
If you have gotten to this point you can stay with the AI in tech on std maps.
I will usually have eliminated one civ and hurt another some (I need their land and a few leaders).
If the map or other circumstances are such that I am not able to do this, it will be a rough ride for a time.

peterfharris · May 13, 2003, 22:39

I have the marketplaces, libraries roads etc in the core. I think you are right about having enough land. Perhaps it simply is that I do not have enough land (I am usually middle sized) which I think arises from my REXing being too slow and not being aggressive enough with my neighbours. Perhaps there is no peaceful solution. Perhaps I must dismember a neighbour.

vmxa1 · May 14, 2003, 01:02

We have threads on peace modes, so it can be done, but why bother?

Mountain Sage · May 14, 2003, 03:55

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
We have threads on peace modes, so it can be done, but why bother?

Well, for instance, because every gold and shield NOT put into the military is one put in city improvements. This is where marketplaces (and later banks), libraries (later universities) become mandatory in EVERY city.
With extra gold (=less military upkeep), you can do faster research and pay for your city improvements upkeeps.
Critical advice1: if you feel you are behind in techs, go for the 'north branch' and swap the 'lesser' techs (Music Theory, Democracy etc.).
Critical advice 2: set aside 2 cities for Palace pre-built: you really should grab Sistine (not for the happiness itself, but for the +gold happiness gives) and specially Smith (Bach would be also fine).
Critical advice 3: diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. For instance, sell your world map every turn. You get an average of 2-5 gold/turn total from other civs. Not much, but after 10 turns it means you can lower your research by 1 turn (do it 20 times and...)
Critical advice 4: in the Ancient Times, be VERY careful when you swap/sell either the world map or your techs. If there is an isolated civ, keep it isolated (also tech-wise). It is better to keep a civ behind in tech than to earn 50-60 gold for a tech.
Critical advice 5: don't rely too much on the GLibrary. The GL is a must to build for me, but it's really useful in two cases:
a) there are lots of civs around (10+): several techs are researched on the same time.
b) it's a good cash cow, and the saved gold should enable you to lower the research/turn once it expires.
IM(H)O, if you just turn off your research, you'll have the nasty surprise that you get Feudalism (for example) for free when the first civ had it already for 10-20 turns. Then their Tsun Su is almost build AND their Engineering is almost done. You lose a Wonder and are behind in tech.
Therefore, even with the GL, research at close to maximum speed yourself the latest techs of the Ancient Times.
Critial advice 6: play a industrious/commercial combo (French or Carthage).

I hope it helps a little. Keep us posted.

badman · May 14, 2003, 04:31

Actually I prefer industrious+scientific because all you need to do ist beeline for literature and education to not fall behind in techs.
I played my last couple of games as scientific civs (not necessarily industrious ones) and I got so used to it that in my current game as the French I'm having problems keeping up.

peterfharris · May 14, 2003, 07:58

I am now trying an emperor One City challenge on a standard pagaea map with me on a little island by myself and an exceptionally good start location (editor). There are 8 other civs.

It has become a very frustrating game. i acquired education from the great library and offered it to the remaining 6 civilisations. Between them they offered the grand sum of about 90 gold and world maps which I already had. Later I paid about 900 gold for Astronomy (missed building Copernicus by 2 turns) and then offered Astronomy to 5 civs. My best offer was around 25 gold.

I have not yet been able to obtain so much as 1 gpt for anything, luxury, iron or tech. I have tried dozens of times.

I am now third on tech and falling. I have no idea how it would be possible to keep up if I must buy techs for 900 gold and can onsell to multiple civilisations for only 100 or so in total. I expect I will be dead last by the time anyone can pay anything worthwhile, unfortunately I will have no techs to sell by then.

All I can do is wait and see if I get the 20,000 culture victory before someone launches a spaceship (or forget OCC and go conquering, not enjoyable).

As I see it I have two options;
1. settler diahrea followed by war & extortion to get huge (I really do not enjoy that)
2. go back to a lower level

I shall go back to a lower level. Thank you for the advice (good advice too I might add).

Nor Me · May 14, 2003, 17:03

Why has no-one mentioned:

1) FP and palace placement.

At about the time you start falling behind in tech, these could be perfect. Are they?

2) Researching less popular techs

As a rough guide, this means useless techs although you should be able to do this by smell. If you research techs the AI is already researching ahead of you, you will fall behind.

Of course in OCC, you shouldn't fail to get Copernicus'.
I seemed to have started never falling behind in tech on Emperor though I've no idea which change in strategy is responsible.

vmxa1 · May 14, 2003, 17:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

Critical advice 3: diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. For instance, sell your world map every turn. You get an average of 2-5 gold/turn total from other civs. Not much, but after 10 turns it means you can lower your research by 1 turn (do it 20 times and...)

See this is why I did not go for Galciv in a big way. I do not want to make trades constantly. I do not find it to be fun and it gets so tedious.
Mind you I am not saying that it can't be useful, it is just not for me.

Nor Me · May 14, 2003, 17:17

It's not processor power that stops the rest of us from playing huge maps.

peterfharris · May 14, 2003, 19:07

After my jolly good whinge 9above) I continued my OCC anyway. I am now 7th in the tech race but I am now pulling in plenty of money from luxuries and saltpeter. I can now buy techs reasonably often and I am the only civ not at war. Because my civ is so small I am doing things like trading my only spice for two luxuries and about 16 gpt. I am selling my only saltpetre for about 30 gpt and if I need some in a hurry I can buy some for a lump sum of about 200 gold. I have abandoned the idea of winning but I am now enjoying this game, I will find out if it is possible for me to catch up on tech. (I am now about 10 techs behind but I seem to have stopped falling further behind). I will be buying techs from those who seem most likely to spend my money on alliances thus further embroiling the other civs in costly wars. Hopefully everyone will finish up at war with everyone.

vulture · May 15, 2003, 06:35

Remember that buying a tech that only one civ has (or only one civ you have contact with) will cost you double what it otherwise would. Never be the first to buy a new tech, unless you do it in a trade for a tech of yours that no-one else knows. Try to avoid buying tech with gpt deals, as that is a guaranteed way to make sure you remain behind the rest of the civs. Buy from commercial civs when possible, as they give you cheaper prices (by about 10%).

As Nor Me says, when not doing OCC, build the Forbidden Palace. Building it almost anywhere is better than not building it at all. Like NM, I've gone from having a hard time keepnig up on Emperor, to managing it quite nicely most of the time, and am not sure what made the difference. I suspect it is the combined effect of a lot of small things added together - starting to use a more closely packed build of cities to get the most out of my land in the medieval era, using the luxury slider (especially in republic) to allow bigger, more productive cities, trying to get the FP built earlier - even a badly placed FP can boost your total productivity by 50% - getting a feel for which techs the AI is likely to leave until later, to give me trade opportunities, paying more attention to getting the most out of trades (especially, not buying unnecessary luxuries - if I have enough to keep all cities out of disorder and can't get enough to get lots of WLTKD, then don't bother buying any more), and probably more beside. The effect of each change can be quite small (except the FP) and hard to notice, but add them all together over the course of the game, and it is quite a big boost.

peterfharris · May 15, 2003, 19:17

It seems you are right about the difference between keeping up and falling behind. It is difficult to pinpoint and seems to be a combination of factors.

I edited my little island to add half a dozen more squares and built 5 cities (umh got 4 cities two squares away from my capital). This time I did get Collusus, Copernicus and Newtons in my capital and am now selling techs for large gpt payments whilst keeping a tech lead.

It has been an interesting exercise in juggling workers between cities. I essentially have one rich city radius of land with 6 more squares to contain the other 4 cities. Those 4 cities would produce only one or two shields each so I needed to use the capital city squares to build improvements until later I could rush build a lot of things when the torrents of money started coming in. They are maxed out now and using only coastal and sea squares. They are contributing plenty of gold and research but are virtually useless for building units.