Diplo talk: who is a natural ally of ours?

moomin · May 15, 2003, 08:41

Gentlemen.

In the chaos and confusion of Landing, I feel we have somewhat lost fokus of the larger strategic challange that the presence of several factions on Chiron present us with. In order to establish mutually agreeable and profitable arrangements as soon as possible, there are several things we need to consider.

Overall foreign policy:
Should we strive to maximise or minimize overall faction co-operation? At the moment it would seem it would benefit us less to have everybody trade/swap techs - we will gain, but less so in absolute terms than other factions. Perhaps we should try to stir up trouble for the time being? Or should we go all-out on a diplomatic offensive to shore up as many trade treaties as possible, knowing others will do the same?

We also need to think of foreign policy in faction terms. While much of this will be governed by realpolitik, i.e. hitting the leader, there are still some differences.

Foreign Policy (the AIs):
AI likes and dislikes are mostly governed by relative strength and SE choices. Morganites are a natural ally fo us, seeing as how we will run ME most of the time. For the same reason, the Cult will probably not be very co-operative. The Angels, with their slow research rate and tremendous probe bonus, will probably not be trusty allies no matter what.

Foreign Policy (the other factions)

* CyCon. Ought to be allies, if we can talk them into it. Their base rate of research is as good as ours, but since they can't pop-boom through SE + infrastructure and have to build base facilities to match what our students build for free in every base, they won't be matching us in sheer output anytime soon. Still, given their tech stealing abilites, an alliance could prove very profitable: we research, they conquer and steal.

* Pirates. If they are smart, they'll play the tech broker game. No immediate danger, since their start is fairly slow, but we'd be well advised to have air power before they can really crank up production. Their far-flung network of bases would make them ideal allies in any global conflict.

* Drones. I'd argue they're the best early-game allies we can possibly get. The abysmal research and stellar production is an ideal theoretical complement to our abilities. Properly handled they could easily provide us with a mighty army by proxy. An army that we must make sure is engaged on another continent, of course.

* Hive. Normally I would suck up to the Hive until such time came to stamp them out, but this time we might consider coalition-building in order to isolate them and force them to do their own science. Given who they are (IRL, not RP) I don't think there are any chances of buildning any solid long-term relationship with them.

Discuss, please.

Archaic · May 15, 2003, 08:54

Tech Trades are important, yes, however tech trading is going to benifit our opponents as much as it does us, and...well....obviously we don't want that. Commerce however is something where the other human factions likely won't be able to get anything approaching the same benifits, and in the long run, with the leg up on infrastructure and energy you get from that, isn't aiming for commerce rather than just tech going to give us an advantage over the others?

Googlie · May 15, 2003, 10:44

Remember that the AI factions are

The Believers (love Fundy and hate Knowledge)

The Angels (who embrace Democracy and abhor Power)

Plus, of course, the tweaking I gave them in the faction diplomacy, personality and strategy instructions sets

G.

Archaic · May 15, 2003, 11:14

In other words......

Believers - If they don't try to kill us on sight, we might get a Treaty from the first contact, and we'll be fine so long as we don't contact them after that.

Angels - They'll hate us early, love us in the middle once we're Demo, and be damn jealous of us in the end even though we're in Demo.

Nubclear · May 15, 2003, 12:48

CyCon: Cannot be trusted, for they want to play the "we are better than you are" game. They will attempt to invade us for our Tech. We must remain vigilant, however, in the face of this threat.

They will fail.

Pirates: Will be glorious friends of ours! For they can't do the tech game

Drones: A BIG threat. Take them out IMMEDIATELY.

Hive.

Our foreign policy should be a very active one, and immediate establishing long term relationships.

History Guy · May 15, 2003, 13:49

Cyborgs are no allies, they are traitors. They are just walking, talking science experiments on the loose. Remember, the Prime Function's just got an electrical outlet stuck in it's head.

Pirates can be useful assistants if we make them indebted to us. I wouldn't trust them in the late game, though.

The Hive will ally with the Cyborgs, unless they decide to kill them. They seem to be doing alot of talking already, and I don't trust it. I think they will be the number one threat once they cement ties with the Cyborgs, a thing we must prevent.

The Drones...kill them...kill them all.

The Morganites will be our best allies, I think. Useful.

The Data Angels are just a bunch of twits. We should get them wiped out sooner or later.

The Believers will be a threat, but not the biggest one. If my instincts are correct, much of their expansion will be on the water, and if we get the Pirates on our side, they'll be croaking in no time.

Googlie · May 15, 2003, 16:07

Quote:

Originally posted by History Guy

The Morganites will be our best allies, I think. Useful.

Morgan isn't in the game

G.

moomin · May 15, 2003, 16:38

Thanks for the correction, Goog.

Alex · May 15, 2003, 16:43

commerce is a plus, and tech trading tends to be good for the others, not so much for us.

I agree about the Drones: kill them all, and fast.

CyCon won't be good allies. Pirates, on the other hand, are a nice option, especially because of their huge net of sea bases.

We need good relationships, because everyone probably had a nice starting place just like us.

moomin · May 15, 2003, 16:52

Gentlemen, we are scientists. Let's not forget rationality for such outmoded, terran concepts as traitors. I think we should work with anyone who provides value to us.

Now; I agree that the CyCons will probably try to run against us - they could have a nice synergy in setting up a plot with the Hive to drag us down to their slower research level. Our diplomatic efforts should concentrate on preventing this eventuality. We cannot afford the luxury of allienating Aki's slaveboys.

I cannot understand why everyone hates the Drones: oh, they become ridiculously powerful once they get up to speed, but in the meantime they could serve us very well indeed. Rest assured the other faction will try to wow this black horse - but we have the most to offer them, so we should have an excellent opportunity to run with them.

The pirates - I'm undecided about these guys. They have nothing much to offer us, and won't have for a long time to come, although they could be useful in keeping enemies off our continent if we were allies. If nothing else, we should try to direct their raids somewhere else.

And ultimely, the Hive. I feel very strongly that the Hive and us are the two main opponents on Planet, for many reasons - not least because who they are and who we are IRL. I think we should exploit the natural sympathy they feel towards esteemed collegue Tassadar... if we did join in an alliance, there be no stopping us, but we would not be able to deal with them once the others were eliminated. So I suggest we concentrate on keeping them out of any very close ties to other factions by dangling the possibility of an alliance with us before them.

AdamTG02 · May 15, 2003, 17:00

In my mind, we'll want to pursue a Builder strategy, at least at first. By focusing our resources on building up infrastructure and peaceful technologies at first, we lay the groundwork that will allow us to become technologically dominant, and roll over other factions if necessary, later. We can't be overconfident, but I think it's safe to say that we are best off fighting once we develop a significant tech advantage.

That said, who do I think poses the greatest opportunity as our ally, and who poses the greatest threat? To a large extent, it depends on geography. However, I believe the Cyborgs are generally natural rivals, and the Hive (and Believers) likely to war with us over our Democracy. On the other hand, the Drones could become a strong ally if we gave them enough technology to make us valuabe to them, but not enough to make them a threat to us. The Pirates are unlikely to conflict with us over expansion, and Pacting with them could greatkly increase our mobility over the oceans, while Vendettaing with them would make any ocean traffic difficult. They're likely to value the tech edge we can give them as well. The Angels may be AI, but if we can gain their friendship by running Democracy, their probe abilities can prove a natural counterpoint to our research strengths.

Again, none of this is set in stone. Who we conflict with generally will depend on who blocks our expansion. But if I were to guess, I'd say the Consciousness, Hive, and Believers are more likely to be our enemies, while the Drones, Pirates, and Angels are more likely allies.

Mr. President · May 15, 2003, 21:05

I'd be inclined to call the Consciousness a rival because of its technological output. Since sea power is a big pain to create and maintain (at least it usually is for me

), I'd say that an alliance with the Pirates would help in projection of power.

Timbba · May 18, 2003, 05:57

The weird idea of the day : if we start up close to the annoying religious freaks (which are AI) we might do a surprise attack on them to get them to surrender to us. With our tech advantage, it can't be *that* hard...

Then we'd have a free, loyal, submissive pact brother that we could either use as a meatshield against other factions or exploit to get free bases and money. Although that sounds more like an Evil Hive Strategy (tm).

Also, this is in every way better than having the Annoying Religious Freaks grow into a major, powerful faction that wants to fry us and swallow us whole...

Please forgive any stupid newbie mistakes in the post

.

GeneralTacticus · May 18, 2003, 05:59

The only problem with that idea is that the AIs have given a substantial boost, which would render it rather difficult to pull off without an excessive committment of resources.

Googlie · May 18, 2003, 09:57

You seem to be in the same position as one of the other factions in that I don't recognize many of you as having played in my CMN'd games or Scenario camnpaigns. This puts you at a disadvantage relative to the others who are familiar with my mapping and set-up style.

here's what I posted yesterday in another, similar, faction's strategy thread:

*********************************************

As a faction you are at a slight disadvantage in that I don't think any of you have been in any PBEM's or Challenges that I've CMN'd, whereas all the others have at least one or two 'vets' from my campaigns.

They'll already know this, so I'm not breaching any "fairness' rules by giving a little insight into how I set up PBEMs:

When I put you on the same landmass as another faction I'll generally separate your start positions by at least 40 tiles, so that it'll be 20 turns or so before you meet (unless the other is Sparta, with their rovers, or the Angels, with their longstriding probes)

I love continents separated by narrow channels (that can be terraformed bridged) or joined by narrow isthsmuses (that can be choke-point defended

Every human faction is as likely to meet the AI as to meet another human faction - it's my "equal opportunity" rule, giving all factions the chance to meet and conquer (or be conquered by) the AI, or to trade and pact with them (maybe with the exception in this game of the Pirates who can prolly explore and contact faster than anyone else)

As the intent of this game is the creation of 'virtual societies', where the fun is as much in the byplays, propaganda, newspapers, etc (and the turnplaying is only to more formalize the discoveries, diplomacy, etc), it would be remiss of me to set it up so that a human-played team could be destroyed within 40 or 50 turns (unless through gross negligence such as leaving bases undefended for Miriam's hordes to waltz into.)

I tweak the AI generally to follow their preferences/aversions as regards Pacting or Vendettas. To recap:

Believers - Choices: Fundy ..... Aversions: Knowledge
Angels - Choices: Democratic ... Aversions:Power

(but they have surprised me in games where they have gone counter-intuitive)

I trust that helps in the deliberations

G.

********************************************

(and remember, from the general thread, the AI starts with their first 3 bases established - so that I can set their governors' agendas - so they are mre than likely going to be able to hold their own until the mid game when human terraforming & tactics overtake the AI's

G.

Alex · May 19, 2003, 14:36

interesting info, Googlie, thanks for sharing it with us.

Maniac · February 19, 2004, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
CyCon: Cannot be trusted, for they want to play the "we are better than you are" game.

Eh?

Archaic · February 23, 2004, 08:09

^^;

Illuminatus · February 24, 2004, 15:11

Wow - the forums show life

GeoModder · February 24, 2004, 15:42

Oneliners only, so far

But this is funny:

Quote:

Originally posted by Googlie
As the intent of this game is the creation of 'virtual societies', where the fun is as much in the byplays, propaganda, newspapers, etc (and the turnplaying is only to more formalize the discoveries, diplomacy, etc), it would be remiss of me to set it up so that a human-played team could be destroyed within 40 or 50 turns (unless through gross negligence such as leaving bases undefended for Miriam's hordes to waltz into.)

Haven't seen the start of the CC-PEACE war, but we nearly broke Googlie's time-scale

Snowflake · June 21, 2004, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by moomin

* Hive. Given who they are (IRL, not RP) I don't think there are any chances of buildning any solid long-term relationship with them.

Who is he talking about? Voltaire?

Snowflake · June 21, 2004, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by History Guy
Cyborgs are no allies, they are traitors.

What insight.

Quote:

The Hive will ally with the Cyborgs, unless they decide to kill them.

Again, what insight.