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Old May 16, 2003, 03:29   #1
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There is a God: Civ III Conquest Suggestions
To Firaxis,

I have been with Civ III since day 1 of the game’s release in 2001. I want to say that I am pleased with the announcement of Conquests. I just got back from The Matrix Reloaded and this announcement just topped off my day perfectly. Thank you for all the fun. You have my business for your latest XP.

I have a few concerns and suggestions I would like to be considered.

1)TRADE - I’ve been discussing with a lot of players about a slightly Modified trade system where aside from trading techs, gold, luxuries, resources and workers, a new diplomatic option of establishing a trade route (meant to represent the flow of goods) will be added. Check this thread for more details http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...92#post1988603

2)AI - The AI in Civ III PTW is pretty darned good and I assume with the new slate of features, the programmers will have their hands full implementing and fine tuning the AI needed for the new features. I think the fans deserve a better all around AI too. Just as you guys delivered a superior AI in PTW, perhaps some of the AI lapses (such as worker inefficiency) and others can be fixed. See link for my research into AI worker inefficiency. (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...ghlight=worker)

3)Diplomacy - I am encouraged by the new feature of “Locked alliances” but please don’t make it a glorified MPP between multiple nations. If locked alliances is IN, then allow for unit trading. Known abuses of this can be fixed by 1) disallowing trade of units outdated relative to the receiver 2) unit trade cap on the lifetime of the alliance 3) Better AI management of its own units. If it gets 3 tanks in a trade and still has 3 medieval infantry somewhere, it should disband its outdated offensive units and have the tanks replace it.

Also, make the UN more political, rather than just an end run kind of thing.


4)PATCHING - I understand Conquests is supposed to work with Civ III standalone. But I assume it will also work with those of us who have both Civ III and PTW. I’d like to see streamlined patching. The way things are currently going, it is likely we will get something like this in our install directory under “Add/Remove programs.”

Civ III > Civ III Patch > PTW > PTW Patch > Conquests > Conquests Patch

I’m no programmer, but I’d have to assume this is a little inefficient, and may take us extra HD room as well as hinder the performance for someone playing Coquests, with so many layers of patches and programs stacking on one another.

If at all possible, can Firaxis include THE OPTION for PTW owners to install a universal patch for Civ III , PTW and conquests? I’m assuming the 1.29f for CivIII is final. And PTW may receive its final patch soon. It would be nice if we could streamline this a little and have something like this instead.

Civ III > PTW > Conquests > Universal Patch

Variances of the patch could also be released for those who only own Civ III and Conquests.

5) Requirements - The Conquests FAQ lists the XP as running on a P II 300 Mhz, same as Civ III and PTW. However, PTW’s manual and readme lists the game as requiring a PII 400 Mhz, despite the Civ3.com FAQ saying otherwise. I have a PIII 450 MHZ, a marginal system, and would appreciate it if Conquests is kept workable in the 300 Mhz limit listed in the FAQ, at least for the map sizes up to 160X160.

6) Related to the issue of Technology. For a marginal system like mine, in PTW, the military screen “F3” is nearly unworkable in the middle to late game when spies are planted. It takes several seconds to scroll one line down to check an AI civ’s military lists. If something can be done to fix this, It would be appreciated.

Last edited by dexters; May 16, 2003 at 03:44.
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Old May 16, 2003, 16:18   #2
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Bump ^
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Old May 16, 2003, 17:47   #3
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Erm, what is the use of this thread when we have this one around ?
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:24   #4
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Now now, calm down Spiff.

Fact of the matter is, there are about 5 or 6 of these floating around. In varying forms. Some are focuing on tobacco, unit lists, city lists, civ lists, petitions etc. I just decided to put my thoughts into 1 thread, instead making 5 or 6 of them, which I could do if you prefer that.

We're all excited about the new XP. Let's not get tied up with procedure. I'm not spamming or anything.

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Old May 18, 2003, 07:54   #5
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hi ,

Civ III > Civ III Patch > PTW > PTW Patch > Conquests > Conquests Patch


well there is a solution to this , burn the latest patch on the new XP , burn all the games on a series of cd-rom's or burn them on a dvd

have a nice day
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Old May 18, 2003, 11:13   #6
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burn all the games on a series of cd-rom's or burn them on a dvd
You better watch what you say. These people have everybody's IP and info and you just advocated 'burning' a copywrighted game...........

Bad Move.
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Old May 18, 2003, 11:52   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Obvious


You better watch what you say. These people have everybody's IP and info and you just advocated 'burning' a copywrighted game...........

Bad Move.
Hehehehe.

You mean 'copyright' as in "copy" and "right" - i.e. the right to copy commercially. It originally refered to the exclusive right a person had in printing material for sale. I wonder what a copywright is? The second functional airplane ever built?
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Old May 18, 2003, 14:31   #8
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Re: There is a God: Civ III Conquest Suggestions
Quote:
Originally posted by dexters

5) Requirements - The Conquests FAQ lists the XP as running on a P II 300 Mhz, same as Civ III and PTW. However, PTW’s manual and readme lists the game as requiring a PII 400 Mhz, despite the Civ3.com FAQ saying otherwise. I have a PIII 450 MHZ, a marginal system, and would appreciate it if Conquests is kept workable in the 300 Mhz limit listed in the FAQ, at least for the map sizes up to 160X160.
But I just bought a new computer just so I could play PTW!
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Old May 18, 2003, 14:41   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,

Civ III > Civ III Patch > PTW > PTW Patch > Conquests > Conquests Patch
You mean, Civ III > 1st patch > "paid patch" > 2nd patch > 2nd "paid patch" > 3rd patch......

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Old May 18, 2003, 16:24   #10
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Re: Re: There is a God: Civ III Conquest Suggestions
Quote:
Originally posted by Quasar1011


But I just bought a new computer just so I could play PTW!
Now THAT is dedication.
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Old May 18, 2003, 19:27   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by panag
hi ,

Civ III > Civ III Patch > PTW > PTW Patch > Conquests > Conquests Patch


well there is a solution to this , burn the latest patch on the new XP , burn all the games on a series of cd-rom's or burn them on a dvd

have a nice day
The issue really isn't about concentrating all the patch files into one disc.

I'm simply saying that instead of patching so many damn times, there should be a universal patch so we patch once.
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Old May 19, 2003, 04:44   #12
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Quote:
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The issue really isn't about concentrating all the patch files into one disc.

I'm simply saying that instead of patching so many damn times, there should be a universal patch so we patch once.
Hmm, these patches are 'universial' already. Remember that you have 1.16, 1.21 and 1.29 for civ3 but you only need to install the latest.
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Old May 19, 2003, 05:04   #13
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Read what I say man.

You need a seperate patch for Civ III (1.29f) and PTW (1.21f). And the way things are going, there will be another patch for Conquests.

That's not universal. Far from it.

If you don't have PTW, then please don't comment since you don't know what I'm talking about
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Old May 19, 2003, 05:52   #14
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I have PTW, do you still play vanilla civ3? I don't.

There have been no civ3 pathces after PTW was released meaning that I don't have to worry about civ3 patches anymore. By the time Conquests is available my guess is that there will be no more PTW patches either. The only time you would actually need a super-patch would be if you wanted to reinstall all games.

I don't find it strange that you have different patches for different products, even if PTW is an add-on. Anyway, it makes the file-size smaller.

Ideally firaxis would have a 'civ-update' function built into the game so you could download patches automatically when they were available.
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Old May 19, 2003, 06:02   #15
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Hmm.. I didn't know it works like that.

I thought you need the 1.29f vanilla Civ III patch for fixes to carry over to ptw.

Are you sure you don't need 1.29f? You may be playing PTW with unfixed bugs in vanilla Civ3
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Old May 19, 2003, 06:15   #16
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PtW contains all the fixes from the vanilla 1.29f patch.

Edit: To be more precise: PtW already contains the 1.29 patch. You don't need the 1.29 patch if you have PtW.
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Old May 19, 2003, 06:50   #17
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I'm not sure if I need civ3 1.29f to install PTW(I'm at work now so I can't check...). What I DO know is that when I finally got my greasy fingers on PTW I had already installed patch 1.29f on my computer.

I'm not up-to-date on Conquests but it wouldn't surprise me if patch development stoppet on any other incarnations of civ when Conquests get released.
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Old May 19, 2003, 08:39   #18
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You don't need to patch vanilla Civ3 to install PtW.

I would assume that Conquests will ship with both 1.29 patch for Civ3 and 1.29(?) patch for PtW.
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Old May 19, 2003, 10:03   #19
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PTW includes (in a way) 1.29f
If you install PTW there is no need for the 1.29f patch.
It might become more complex after conquests is released, although they might simply stop suporting PTW w/out conquests (like they stoped suporting vanilla civ after PTW).
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Old May 19, 2003, 12:01   #20
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Firaxis says it is putting more diplomacy into the game... and there are a few things that I want specifically (most of these were talked about in the past on these boards, but I haven't seen them since the Conquest announcement was made).

1. One way ROP.
If I'm at the end of a landmass, it's silly for an ally who is between me and our common enemy to have to pass through me. Should be easy to program, realistic (look at US today).

2. Duration editing of deals
Why does every deal have to be twenty turns? What if I want a spice for gems deal until the end of time? Or a mutual protection pact for only 10 turns? I would love to be able to sign a military alliance for only 10 turns during the modern era when war weariness is crippling but I don't want a rep hit.

The AI could weight the values of trade deals according to how long they will last, which it already does for gpt deals anyhow.

3. Cease fire.
I see these working as follows: Nobody pays anybody anything, but all fighting stops. Now you can negotiate for peace over the course of the cease fire (which is an editable duration, of course!). If the cease fire expires, it remains unofficially in place until hostilities are reopened. I especially see this as useful in multiplayer, where either diplomacy is carried out over several turns, or you can't necessarily drop everything to negotiate a peace deal. Also, the tension of such a deal is one of the greats from Civ 2 and Alpha Centauri. Entering a cease fire would make relations with the other civ improve over a state of war. Breaking a cease fire would come with a small rep hit.

4. Stacked units with allies.
Been talked about in these threads. It is very important, I think.

5. Alliances without enemies.
This might be what the "permanant alliances" they've talked about are, I don't know. Alliance status increases relations greatly, allows use of each others roads, rails, airbases, and allows unit stacking. Their units can heal in your barracks. Includes an ROP, and implies a MPP. If one gets attacked, you don't get thrown into war, but they can ask you to join to honor the alliance. Not doing so when requested has penalties.

6. Option to honor/not honor agreements.
This is to clean up some of the ridiculous logic of MPPs. Let's say I have an MPP with Greece and Rome, and Rome attacks Greece. I should get a popup saying "The Greeks are under attack by Romans, shall we honor our agreement with Alexander and declare war?" Saying yes is obviously expected, and no has a rep hit and makes people less likely to honor a MPP with you, but it's an option. Let's say Greece is half of Rome's size, and you share an enormous border with Rome, and the only reason you signed an MPP with both was for protection against some other common enemy... I can see not wanting a Roman war shoved down your throat.

7. Multilateral diplomacy!
Many of us have cried out for this one, however unlikely. But if you're going to ask us to pay money for a game we already own, then make it worth our cash! I'd pay if this were the only addition.

8. Unit trading.
See the thousands of threads already dedicated to this topic.

9. Constant choice between "Please leave" and "Get out or war."

10. Some effect from "please leave."
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Old May 19, 2003, 12:15   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fosse

4. Stacked units with allies.
Been talked about in these threads. It is very important, I think.
This is a must

Quote:
7. Multilateral diplomacy!
Many of us have cried out for this one, however unlikely. But if you're going to ask us to pay money for a game we already own, then make it worth our cash! I'd pay if this were the only addition.
We can only hope!

Quote:
10. Some effect from "please leave."


I'm glad to see so many of us are on the page with respect to changes. Hopefully Firaxis is aware of this and implementing the features.
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Old May 19, 2003, 12:24   #22
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I almost forgot... no free palaces!

Building a palace is so expensive, but losing your palace means you get a free one?! What the heck?

The player is given an advantage because he knows that abandoning his capital is sometimes a great idea, which is absurd.

And losing a capital doesn't really matter... I propose that losing the palace means all cities are counted as being, for exapmle, six cities away form the capital in terms of corruption. I don't know exactly what would be a good number, maybe Alexman, or someone else who really knows corruption could come up with one.

Also, if a civ has no palace, then a new palace is hugely discounted, so that a reasonably built up, but largely corrupt city, could finish it in about 20 turns.


ANd if you have the FP when you lose your palace? Make FP change into a palace, and now you can build the FP somewhere else.


Losing your Palace should be a horrible thing, and the enemy's capital should be a prime military target (besides for culture fliping reasons). My suggestion would reflect this, without being too powerful.
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Old May 19, 2003, 14:28   #23
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I agree, loosing your capitol has almost no effect now. It should have more impact than just loosing a city. How about this: When your capitol falls you get a dialog asking which city will be your new capitol. Chose the city with FP(if you got it) and that will be your capitol in 1 turn, choose another and a capital get built there in 5 turns. Meanwhile all cities suffer high corruption.

How high is 'high' then? Corruption is calculated from three factors, number of cities, distance from capitol and number of cities closer to capitol. And then you have modifiers for building governments etc. Double all factors regarding number of cities, distance from capitol and number of cities closer to capitol to get palace-less corruption.
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Old May 19, 2003, 15:55   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by bongo
How high is 'high' then? Corruption is calculated from three factors, number of cities, distance from capitol and number of cities closer to capitol. And then you have modifiers for building governments etc. Double all factors regarding number of cities, distance from capitol and number of cities closer to capitol to get palace-less corruption.
I like the gist of your idea. But if one of the factors calculating corruption is distance from capital, how do you do this when there is no capital?
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Old May 19, 2003, 16:46   #25
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I like the gist of your idea. But if one of the factors calculating corruption is distance from capital, how do you do this when there is no capital?
Just say that every city is X number of tiles away from the capital if there is none. That's how it's worked in past games.
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Old May 19, 2003, 16:51   #26
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Quote:
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4. Stacked units with allies.
Been talked about in these threads. It is very important, I think.
This is one feature I really want. Heck, I would probably buy the expansion just for this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fosse
6. Option to honor/not honor agreements.
This is to clean up some of the ridiculous logic of MPPs. Let's say I have an MPP with Greece and Rome, and Rome attacks Greece. I should get a popup saying "The Greeks are under attack by Romans, shall we honor our agreement with Alexander and declare war?" Saying yes is obviously expected, and no has a rep hit and makes people less likely to honor a MPP with you, but it's an option. Let's say Greece is half of Rome's size, and you share an enormous border with Rome, and the only reason you signed an MPP with both was for protection against some other common enemy... I can see not wanting a Roman war shoved down your throat.
Definitely needed, though the rep hit must be quite harsh to keep MPPs from being fluff. Possibly keep AIs from ever signing an MPP with you again, like with breaking gpt deals.
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Old May 19, 2003, 17:05   #27
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I agree with the idea of giving players choice with regards to honoring and not honiring agreements.
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Old May 19, 2003, 18:25   #28
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Non aggression pacts would be nice as would permanent alliances that theyve mentioned. The ability to set your stance ie polite furious etc,( this really bugs me not being able to let them know how pissed off I am with them) would be a nice feature, and a way to demand or ask one AI to cease aggression towards another civ. Perhaps one you are allied with but you dont want to get dragged onto the fighting.

I like the idea of not having to honour agreements but it must carry a severe rep hit both for human and AI players.

Civil war should be brought back as we had in civ2 when you captured a civs capitol or an improved model of it.

The AI really needs to be improved in the use of bombardment units for attack as well as defense, it seems to use naval bombardment of your coastal squares quite well but rarely attacks on land with Artillery etc to soften up targets first. IMHO if the AI made good use of Artillery and protected it properly the game would be both tougher and far more realistic and fun.

I think everyone wants to see some improvements in the trade system especially with regard to visible trade routes and the ability to pirate them.
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Old May 19, 2003, 18:59   #29
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[In part, as edited]:

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus
"...The ability to set your stance ie polite furious etc,( this really bugs me not being able to let them know how pissed off I am with them) ..."
CTP2 does this. You are able to make your diplomatic requests with varying levels of obsequiousness and anger.

What I want: the ability to see how AI civs feel about each other.
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Old May 20, 2003, 03:18   #30
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Loss of capitol
Quote:
Originally posted by Falconius


I like the gist of your idea. But if one of the factors calculating corruption is distance from capital, how do you do this when there is no capital?
In older civ games the distance without a capitol were set equal to map size I think, or some other value mimicking a capitol on the other side of the world. In civ3 this value would effectively cripple all cities. So in a capitol-challenged empire distance to capitol could be set to distance to where-capitol-once-were*2. This would increase corruption everywhere but still give your old core a decent production.
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