Early Landing Comparison Game #5

[solo]

Time flies, and it's already near the deadline for game #4, so I will post the starts for game #5. With the approach of summer, the deadline for these games will be extended an extra week and will be Sunday, June 15. This time we will be playing as the Chinese.

Welcome to any newcomers. Anyone is welcome to join in by downloading the starts and playing one or both games. Below is the set of rules we use:

Rules used for Comparison Games

a) The human player may not tip any huts. What’s a rule without an exception, so in the rare situation where a hut may block a player’s movement, the player must save the game, after which the hut is tipped enough times until it produces a military unit or a nomad, which must then be immediately disbanded. Huts appearing in a radius of any city can be destroyed without reaping any benefit by placing a citizen on the hut’s tile while in the city display.

b) Since the game attempts to prevent caravan and freight re-homing, this exploit is not allowed. Any other ploy or exploit is allowed.

c) As a minimum each player should provide a summary of their game, using the format provided with each game start. Each player is also encouraged to keep a chronological log of their game, listing significant events. The addition of details describing the game and strategic decisions made while playing it add interest, so doing this is very much encouraged. Once a game is completed, a short game summary and the optional log should be posted in the game’s thread. Attached to this post should be a save of the game made showing a completed ship or one on the way to Alpha Centauri.

d) The player posting the best landing date before the deadline will be declared the winner of that game. If the date is the best so far attained in comparison games, it will become the new “official” record.


Summary Format

Governments
Monarchy
Republic
Democracy
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
ST
Colossus
Copernicus
Isaac's
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's
SETI
Apollo

SSC stats
size 8
size 12
size 21
max. size

Techs
Trade
Invention
Railroad
Automobile
Nuclear Power
Computers
Flight
Space Flight

Key civ contact

AC arrival

The table following each game will contain these stats. Of course, you may not end up building all wonders listed, or use all governments, so just keep track of dates relevant to your own game. More detailed logs and/or written accounts of games will be at the players' discretion. Add as little or as much as you want to the required summary.

Here is the medium map start. A suitable SSC site can be found at (39,55), and it is the first one we've had featuring gems as a trade special.

[solo]

Here's the large map start, with a suitable SSC site at (71,81). Two of its specials are hidden.

[Zenon]

I have started with the large map this time and played into the AD years. It´s a very nice setting and I expect new records on this map.

Zenon

[Zenon]

ELCG 5 Large Map, Chinese, 753 AD Landing

What can I say? This is my best landing date in an ELCG and it was achieved on a large map. In this game just about everything worked as well as I could imagine. A nice setting allowed a good start. Once the ship lines to Zulus and Germans and - late in the game - to the Romans were established trade was fantastic. City growth and SSC development were done according to plan. I could build the happiness wonders first and finished most of the city growth in 260 AD (SSC size 21, 2 cities size 10/12, 8 cities sizes 7/8). SSC development was completed with INC in 280 AD (size 25 in 380 AD). The AI´s were strong and offered excellent tech trades, with Invention, Gun Powder and Metallurgy even during Renaissance. I was very close to 2 techs a turn before automobile and from there on 2 techs a turn were never a question. The turn before Flight I delivered 15 freights I didn´t need for the tech pace and received over 8000 gold. On the launch turn I build a 17 – 8 – 3 spaceship and - without selling any improvements - had over 3000 gold left. Quite an experience!


The summary:

Governments
Monarchy 1850 BC
Republic 225 BC
Democracy 300 AD

Wonders
MPE 950 BC
HG 600 BC
Colossus 300 BC
Michaelangelo's 75 BC
ST 20 AD
JSB 180 AD
Copernicus 240 AD
Isaac's 280 AD
Darwin's 400 AD
SETI 660 AD
Apollo 720 AD

SSC stats
size 8 1 AD
size 12 80 AD
size 21 260 AD
size 25 380 AD

Techs
Trade 1250 BC
Invention 200 AD
Railroad 380 AD
Automobile 540 AD
Nuclear Power 620 AD
Computers 640 AD
Flight 660 AD
Space Flight 700 AD

Key civ contact 950 BC

AC arrival 753 AD

The launch sav

[Zenon]

ELCG 5 Large Map, Chinese, 753 AD Landing

BC
3900 Peking SSC, Shanghai,
3700 Alphabet
3350 Code of Laws,
2850 Bronce Working, Canton
2700 Nanking
2350 CB
2100 Tsingtao
2000 Xinjiang
1900 discover Monarchy
1850 Monarchy
1550 Currency
1500 Chengdu
1300 Hangchow
1250 Trade
1100 Tientsin, Tatung
975 MPE, Germans trade for Writing Map Making, maps, Aztecs trade for Literacy, maps,, Zulu Mystizism, maps, Sioux, Romans, maps,
925 Greeks, maps
800 Macao (11th)
675 dye Shanghai Frankfurt (d) 128g, copper to Frankfurt (d) 144g, trade for Construction, Pottery
650 Philosophy, Medicine, Anyang (12th)
625 Shantung (13th)
600 HG,
475 trade for seafaring, The wheel, mathematics
425 hides Chengdu Zimbabwe (d) 208g
375 Chinan Nova (14th)
350 trade for Banking
300 Colossus
275 Kaifeng Nova (15th)
250 trade for Engineering
225 Republic, wine Tientsin Intombe (d) 150g, Ningpo Nova (16th), trade for Polytheism
175 dye to Bapedi (d) 416g
150 silk Chengdu Leipzig (d) 396g
125 Monotheism, wine Hangchow Leipzig (d) 280g
100 wine Shanghai Bapedi (d) 420g, Paoting Col (17th)
75 MC, Sanitation, copper Hangchow Zimbabwe (d) 304g
50 11 cities celebrating,
25 SSC aqueduct, gems Nanking Zimbabwe (d) 572g, Yangchow Col (18th), trade for Iron Working
AD
1 size 8, University, trade for Feudalism
20 ST, hides to Ulundi (d) 656g, hides Chengdu Ulundi (d) 288g
40 Theory of Gravity, wine to Zimbabwe (d) 700g
60 napa col (19th), SSC sewerage
80 size 12, dye Tatung Hlobane (d) 376g
100 Theology, gems Anyang Bapedi (d) 336g, cloth to Zimbabwe 480g
120 Bridge Building, Sioux discover Invention (hut) Romans get it from GL, Aztecs discover Invention, Zulu allready have it, quite unusual!

140 SSC harbour, dye Chinan Tientsin (d) 108g, Issa Nova (20th), silk Ningpo SSC (d) 444g
160 copper Shantung Berlin (d) 368g
180 JSB, Economics, SSC library, dye Tsingtao Leipzig (d) 448g
200 copper to Zimbabwe (d) 726g, trade for Invention
220 Chemistry, SSC University, wine Nanking Zimbabwe (d) 390g,
240 Copernicus, dye Xinjiang Berlin (d) 228g, coal Ningpo Nanking (d) 107g

260 size 21, coal Macao Zimbabwe (d) 260g, celebration stops outside SSC, city sizes: 12, 10, 8(7), 7(4), 6, 5, others (4), trade for Navigation, Gun Powder

280 INC
300 Democracy, wool Shanghai Berlin (d) 296g, wine Tatung Zimbabwe (d) 465g
320 Physics, gems to Zimbabwe 336g, gems Kaifeng SSC 85g, copper Chinan Ulundi (d) 184g,
340 Explosives, dye Anyang Intombe (d) 108g, spices Ningpo SSC (d) 342g, coal Yangchow SSC 152g
360 Steam Engine, silk Paoting Col SSC (d) 453g, 360 Cunaxa Col (21st)
380 Railroad, SSC size 25, cloth Paoting SSC 105g, trade for metallurgy, Barb München bribed 260g (22nd),
400 Darwin´s, Industrialization, Corporation, wine to Zimbabwe (d) 564g, science 1282 (costs 1350)
420 Atomic Theory, coal Chengdu Zimbabwe (d) 380g, science 1349
440 Magnetism, gems to Zimbabwe 360g, beads Paoting SSC 108g
460 Refinery, wine Macao Zimbabwe (d) 335g, oil to Zimbabwe 360g, cloth Tientsin Berlin (d) 300g, wool Tatung Königsberg (d) 260g, wine Canton Zimbabwe (d) 420g

480 Electricity, Cremta Col (23rd), gold Hangchow Wounded Knee (d) 270g, science 1527 (SSC 810)

500 Combustion, beads Xinjiang Zimbabwe 186g, copper Tsingtao Ulundi (d) 286g, dye Kaifeng SSC 62g

520 Steel, Tura Chan (24th), silk Issa Zimbabwe(d) 204g, coal Hangchow Zimbabwe (d) 365g

540 Automobile, SSC, Chengdu superhighways, Electronics, silk Chengdu Bapedi (d) 548g, hides to Ulundi (d) 1130g, science 1937 (SSC 1140), Genyang Col (25th), trade for horse riding,

560 Chivalry, Leadership, München, Nanking, Shanghai superhighways, silver München SSC (d) 1194g, gems Shanghai Cedar Creek (d) 602g, oil Anyang SSC 180g all trade routes unblocked, Shihezi Col (26th), Vengchan Col (27th)

580 Mass Production, Conscription, Hangchow Macao Ningpo superhighways, dye to Cumae (d) 1237g, wine Hangchow Zimbabwe (d) 675g

600 Tactics, Nuclear Fission, Caoying Canying Tatung Tientsin superhighways, Salyang Col (28th), spices Caoyang SSC (d) 1140g, spices München SSC (d) 1280g, gold Chengdu Zimbabwe 286g

620 Machine Tools, Nuclear Power, Genyang Tura Chan Napa Tsingtao superhighways, Liyang Col (29th), Halong Romae (30th), silver to Cumae (d) 1322g, dye to Rome (d) 1322g, gems Chinan Zimbabwe (d) 710g

640 Miniturization, Computers, Vengchan Shihezi Yangchow superhighways, silk Chengdu Leipzig (d) 638g, cloth Tsingtao Tura Chan (d) 334g, spices Vengchan SSC (d) 1308g, dye Shanghai Veii (d) 636g, gold Canying Nanking (d) 520g, beads Tientsin Veii (d) 498g, silk Genyang Shanghai (d) 696g, coal Shihezi Shanghai (d) 544g, cloth Macao Rome (d) 810g, oil Canying SSC (d) 1363g, salt Yangchow SSC 430g, dye Canying SSC 390g, dye Tura Chan SSC 448g, oil Chengdu Rome 387g, gold Chinan Rome 336g, science 2304, gold 7149

660 Flight, SETI Program, Radio, Cremta superhighways, silver to Cremta (d) 567g, gold shanghai Caoying (d) 427g, dye to Bapedi (d) 616g, science 2830

680 Advanced Flight, Laser, Halong Romae, Cunyang superhighways, gems Shanghai Cumae (d) 792g, silk Halong Nanking (d) 568g, oil Yangchow SSC 219g

700 Rocketry, Space Flight, Liyang superhighways, silver to Cumae (d) 1010g, dye to Leipzig (d) 832g, copper Macao Berlin (d) 196g, silk Chengdu Bapedi (d) 432g, trade for Masonry

720 Plastics, Superconductor, Apollo Program, Salyang superhighways, spices Lyang SSC (d) 608g, coal Salyang SSC (d) 470g

740 Fusion Power, Launch 17 – 4 – 4 – 1 – 1 – 1

753 AC Landing


Zenon

[solo]

Wow! Nice going Zenon. You have figured out how to play it best on large maps!

I'm afraid I have not kept up this this set of games. On the medium map my third city was destroyed by barbs very early and they went on creating enough havoc to force me to resign it early without a chance of doing very well.

Meanwhile I have been quite distracted with the recent release of Rise of Nations and am now fully engrossed in learning that game, so will not have a chance to play or complete a large map game here, though I doubt very much I could come close to Zenon's great result if I were to try it. My apologies to Zenon and any others who may be playing, for not keeping up with this latest set of EL games.

However, I think a few others are also looking into RoN, as I have not seen any other news of any games in progress.

Again, super result Zenon! I will take a look at your save and log to see what I can learn from them.

[rjmatsleepers]

Great result Zenon. Only 1 military unit in the whole empire and all of the AI love you! Can't be bad.

RJM at Sleepers

[Scouse Gits]

Zenon - words fail
Record for Large World 753AD

Congratulations! I am looking forward to reading your log. I didn't think the start was that promising.

-------------------

SG(2)

[Zenon]

Solo,

that´s almost to much praise from the master of ELG´s

As for the medium map game: Quite a coincidence, the Barbs destroyed my third city, too. I saw them coming and had a rushbuild phalanx fortified in time, but the stupid unit had the misfortune to loose! I didn´t have enough time to play anyway, so I immediately quit the game. Seems this setting had a barbarian spawning ground on the same continent.

It seems you enjoy RoN. With so many TBS Players attracted to this game and reading the positive comments in the forum I decided to order a copy, too. I am afraid there is some distraction ahead for me, too.

Zenon

[Zenon]

Thank´s RJM! In the early game I gad a few phalanxes to defend against barbarians, but in this game they never showed up. in the late game it wuoldn´t have made a difference if I had lost one of the 30 cities.

Zenon

[Zenon]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
words fail
SG(2)

SG(2), that´s v e r y hard to believe! But I certainly appreciate the comment.
BTW, it´s always a pleasure to read your summaries. I´d love to, but that´s something I can´t do in English.

About the setting: I agree it didn´t look so promising in the beginning, but almost all of the early cities had either a whale or river fields, enough to get a good start. And the trading opportunities were just excellent.

Zenon

[SlowThinker]

Zenon,

Style of your game is really similar to my ELG #2. But I would suppose I will get a bigger advantage because of keeping cities in disorder via Xinning... I thing I can find some new stupidities in my game.

I was much faster with Michelangelo and celebrating, also I celebrated 16 cities and you only 11, but then I lost the margin... I must compare our logs more in detail. Unfortunately, maps are different... (BTW, it would be good to count number of on-path techs and then mark number of techs passed for every year. Otherwise it is complicated to compare a progress of two logs if techs are mixed up).

[Grigor]

I tried the medium map, thinking it would be faster than the large one. I did not get very many barbs and had a promising beginning. However, the SSC site on plains gave me problems and I got very bogged down. I defended so poorly that the AI became a nuisance and I needed some turns of fundy to get a large enough civ to survive. I got to flight in 1802 AD, and will finish in a few days RT. Not much of an early landing.

Results so far:
Governments
Monarchy 1900
Republic 325 bc
Democracy 1020 ad.....
Fundamentalism 1764
Democracy 1790

Wonders
HG --
MPE 825b
ST 280ad
Colossus 175b
Copernicus 600ad
Isaac's 1240ad
Leo's ==
Michaelangelo's 900ad
Darwin's --
SETI ?
Apollo ?

SSC stats
size 8 460ad
size 12 1060ad
size 21 1260ad
max. size 22 1280ad

Techs
Trade 1200 bc
Invention 340ad
Railroad 1340ad
Automobile 1756ad
Nuclear Power 1784ad
Computers ?
Flight 1802ad
Space Flight ?

AC arrival ?

[solo]

Well, I guess a comparison chart is not needed this time, since Zenon was the only one able to complete a game. So far it's been great fun hosting these EL games, but it looks like its time for a break, since interest has waned.

Zenon,

You are too modest and have definitely found the best way so far for playing large maps. It may be that your approach will improve medium map dates, too, leading to pre 500 AD landings. I had suspected that there was not enough time for your approach to compete with my own, but have been proven wrong. Congrats on leading the way to an important advance in EL strategy. Your sudden appearance on these forums and the brilliance of your play have sometimes made me wonder whether or not Samson had returned under an elaborate disguise! If so, don't worry, the secret is safe with me!

ST,

I have followed with interest your EL game #2. You may not have finished by the deadline, but you share much of the credit along with Zenon, SG(2), Cliff, Elephant, Monk and other players in advancing EL strategy beyond the original ideas presented in my guide. I am afraid much of its advice is already obsolete, so welcome you and any others that are interested to append your insights to that thread. You may also want to try your approach using the start in EL #4 to see if you can crack that 500 AD barrier!

To summarize, it looks like these first five EL comparison games have modified EL strategy as follows:

Marco Polo's Embassy is vital

In games where huts are not a factor, there is not as much incentive to explore. Players have found that building MPE povides quicker contact and and more than pays for itself in the additional techs made available through AI research and trades.

Early Monarchy and more secondary city development often outperforms a bare bones Early Republic

By allowing chances for tribute and by being the most favorable government for building up cities early in the game, early Monarchy, when coupled with an approach putting more emphasis on increasing the number and size of secondary cities, seems to outperform early Republic. The advantage of faster research in early Republic diminishes when put up against a strategy coupling MPE and early Monarchy. It looks like Republic is best postponed until Michaelangelo's Chapel is built and all cities are ready to celebrate up in size. There appears to be enough time to acquire and support the off path techs needed for MC.

However, early Republic might still be the way to go in games having the best SSC sites and where the human player starts on a separate island, such as EL #4.

[SlowThinker]

ELG 4 starts on a small island? It may be interesting, but I hate caravans now. Now I would play an ELG where only undemanded commodities would be allowed.

So Michelangelo is a popular wonder now? I didn't follow the course of ELGs.

What I like on EL games is the non-competitive atmosphere. Every result is appreciated, every improvement of landing time is appreciated, it doesn't matter if from 800AD to 700AD or from 1800AD to 1700AD.
(Grigor, we are waiting for your result )

[Elephant]

Hurray for Marco Polo!

Another benefit of MPE is that other civs will trade maps with only Cordial attitudes, assuming no prior Enraged mishaps.

I currently dont go for PolyTheism to get Mikes, I build Oracle ASAP and let the other civs research MT, then I trade for or steal it and build MC in one turn. If I am not researching MT Oracle lasts much longer.

I second ST's appreciation for the cooperative nature of the EL games. I was weeks behind on EL#1-3, and never finished #4 (although it was going pretty well). Two week-long absences this month have kept me away from #5, but I was hoping to catch up later. Will there be a #6?

[SlowThinker]

Elephant, I think ELG #5 wants more finished games

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by solo
Your sudden appearance on these forums and the brilliance of your play have sometimes made me wonder whether or not Samson had returned under an elaborate disguise! If so, don't worry, the secret is safe with me!

...safe with me too
(I am so keen on vet spies that I would love to meet samson so disguised)

[La Fayette]

BTW I just come to remember that Samson is a very fine name, because Samson who was so small managed to beat Goliath who was so big; but Zenon also is a very fine name because Zénon d'Elée was the guy who demonstrated that the arrow never catches the flying bird.
' The arrow flies so much faster than the bird that, every second, the distance between the arrow and the bird is halved, ... and this is precisely why the arrow never catches the bird'

...and this is precisely why I know that La Fayette never catches either Samson or Zenon in early landing .

[La Fayette]

...or solo, or the Monk, or SG(2) for that matter

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by La Fayette
BTW I just come to remember that Samson is a very fine name, because Samson who was so small managed to beat Goliath who was so big;

Hmm, your mixing Samson with David, La Fayette...

Samson was the guy who had all his strength in his hair, and his wife (Dalila) betrayed him, cut his hair and left him to his enmies...

[Elephant]

First Samuel 17: It was David who defeated Goliath. Samson freed the Israelites from the Philistines for a time, but then Delilah tricked him into revealing his weakness and he was captured, blinded and imprisoned. He came back in a last farewell, though - he destroyed the Philistine temple with many rulers inside, pulling it down on himself (Judges 13-16).

[La Fayette]

@ La Fayette
La Fayette says to himself "you have mixed up samson and david; hurry up and edit your post"
... but there are already 2 posts correcting the mistake
At least, I hope I haven't mixed Zénon d'Elée with anyone else and the arrow is still flying

[Zenon]

Originally posted by La Fayette
At least, I hope I haven't mixed Zénon d'Elée with anyone else and the arrow is still flying

Your Lordship,

it is confirmed. Zeno of Elea also described a paradoxon about Achilles and the tortoise: In a race in which the tortoise has a head start, the swifter-running Achilles can never overtake the tortoise. Before he comes up to the point at which the tortoise started, the tortoise will have got a little way, and so on ad infinitum.

The comparison with Achilles seems much more charming.

D´ailleurs, il y a encore au moins deux philosophes et quelques autres de ce nom.

Zenon

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Zenon
The comparison with Achilles seems much more charming.
Zenon

I agree, but the story has already been told in French by Jean de la Fontaine (in a poetry the title of which, freely translated, is 'the hare and the tortoise'):

"...rien ne sert de courir
Il faut partir à point."

That's why I modified it freely to 'the arrow and the bird'

Please, forgive me