New Terror Attacks in Morroco

[Az]

That's a strawman, Spiffor.

The truth is, that there is little pressure from the modern world on traditional arab society, except the pressure of the exchange of ideas in trade. By supporting such bogus values as cultural relativism, and multi-culturalism, we've equated hating what is wrong with hating the other.

[Spiffor]

I don't think it is a strawman.

My concern is to have the Arabs stop hating us, because only once they stop, terrorist groups will stop to resurrect form their ashes (for there will be no support for them), and I take a pragmatic approach to that.
If we are to impose our 'good' culture, if we are to impose our worldview etc. on them, they will quickly reject it, like they have done in Iran, and it can only help for them to hate us.

If we are to make peace, and stop appearing as enemies except by precision attacks on terrorist groups, if we help them having a stable economy, etc. we will stop having Arabs supporting the terrorist groups in the first place. And hence, terrorist groups won't regenerate with the same ease.

I'm not all willy-nilly mind you. I favor the neutralization of extremist religious figures before they can have their teachings spread to much, and efore they can have disciples. I favor the overrepresentation of moderate muslims, and making moderate islamism significant seems to me one of the ways of making radical islamism less of a threat (along with more violent approaches).

[Az]

I'm not all willy-nilly mind you. I favor the neutralization of extremist religious figures before they can have their teachings spread to much, and efore they can have disciples. I favor the overrepresentation of moderate muslims, and making moderate islamism significant seems to me one of the ways of making radical islamism less of a threat (along with more violent approaches).

By doing so, you're behaving the typical european colonialist way. You're condemning those people to social retardation, ( not that I think that we're perfect, but yes, modern culture is superior to the culture that now is practiced in the arab world ), to stop radical islamic extremists, i.e. satisfying your need in stability, peace and quiet. "No need for reforms here, you're doing just swell, let's keep that oil pumping, Gentlemen!"

[Spiffor]

The typical colonialist European way was the very opposite (at least he French model) : it was to assimilate people, the said objective was to bring "modernity" to the "savages", the Africans had history lessons where the teachers talked about "our ancestors the Gauls" etc. We have seen how the 'modernizing' approach has worked

I personally think reforms should begin in the Arab world when the Arabs, or at least the Arab elites, push significantly for reform. As long as the Arabs won't want reforms, I say we don't impose it to them. Otherwise, we are just creating even more frustration and hatred.
There is such a push in some countries like in Tunisia and Morocco. Heck, there is even a modernisation of the society in Iran despite it being ruled by fundamentalists. I'm all for helping the populations in this push. I'm all against 'initiating' (read 'imposing') this push.

[Az]

The typical colonialist European way was the very opposite (at least he French model) : it was to assimilate people, the said objective was to bring "modernity" to the "savages", the Africans had history lessons where the teachers talked about "our ancestors the Gauls" etc. We have seen how the 'modernizing' approach has worked

That's because it was done in a national framework, and was hardly implemented at all, with the territories being used by the "**** and throw away" system. It should be done in a multinational/international framework.

I personally think reforms should begin in the Arab world when the Arabs, or at least the Arab elites, push significantly for reform. As long as the Arabs won't want reforms, I say we don't impose it to them. Otherwise, we are just creating even more frustration and hatred.

The arab society is conservative. A conservative society doesn't want reform BY DEFINITION. Why would the arab elites want reform, if they're the elites already? this is counters and logic. In france, before the revolution, the middleclass wanted reforms, and used the lowerclass uprising, to ascend to power. Why? because they WEREN'T the ruling class, the monarch and the court were. why would the ruling class want reform?

So let's let them abuse women, and kill gay people, that make together around 50-55% of the population. Let the continue in a population boom that would lead to their demise. As long as they're quiet, and don't make any noise and we're fine, everything's dandy!

[badman]

I absolutely agree with Spiffor (but I'm just a stupid European myself).
Besides, what else can you do? You just can't impose a completely different cultural system on people, it just doesn't work, especially so in the Arab society.

And it's just like you said, in order to change the Arab society you cannot reform it from 'above'. The majority of the people (at least the educated ones) have to support reforms otherwise they will not work.
So IMHO America will not be able to successfully install democracy in Iraq (at least not a democracy America wants to see).

[Dr Strangelove]

Since Spanish business was attacked this time I wonder if the Italians or Brits might be next. It could be that al_Queda is attacking establishments identified with members of the "Coalition of the Willing". OTOH I don't know why they picked on the Belgians. It could be a case of mistaken identity, but for the life of me I can't understand how someone could mistake a Belgian embassy for Spanish, Italian, American, or British. The flags don't look at all alike. It might also be a case of "all europeans are the same". We may expect a wave of bigotry to hit the area.

[Az]

a jewish owned restraunt was across the consulate, AFAIK.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I personally think reforms should begin in the Arab world when the Arabs, or at least the Arab elites, push significantly for reform. As long as the Arabs won't want reforms, I say we don't impose it to them. Otherwise, we are just creating even more frustration and hatred.
There is such a push in some countries like in Tunisia and Morocco. Heck, there is even a modernisation of the society in Iran despite it being ruled by fundamentalists. I'm all for helping the populations in this push. I'm all against 'initiating' (read 'imposing') this push.

Aren't the Saudis allegedly toying with the idea of democratic reform?

The problem is that there are many people in these countries who see innocent trade as an imposition of Western culture. Furthermore, even if American and European products were removed from their stores, there are those who feel that non-Muslim broadcast media are an imposition. Are we supposed to dispose of our own satellites and/or allow Muslim fundamentalist censorship of our own radio and TV?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Azazel
a jewish owned restraunt was across the consulate, AFAIK.

Ah, that could explain it. Were there Jewish establishments near "The Spanish Cafe"?

[Az]

No, but there is Ceuta and Melilla. (spelling? )

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Azazel
No, but there is Ceuta and Melilla. (spelling? )

I'm not sure what you're alluding to.

[Az]

To shoreside enclaves of spanish territory in Northern Africa, the cities of Ceuta and Melilla.

[Dr Strangelove]

Spain still claims land in North Africa? I didn't know that. Were these areas attacked?
What I was referring to was the bombing of an establishment known as "The Spanish Cafe" during this round of bombings in Morocco. Most of the aother places bombed seem to have had some connctions to Jews. I was asking whether the target of the bombing of this Cafe might have actually been a nearby Jewish business. If not then one might assume that the place was targetted because the bombers knew that Spain had been a member of "The Coalition of the Willing".

[Az]

courtesy of the benevolent CIA. Note the two dots in the north.

[Oerdin]

This whole thing is so sad. What I'm really confussed about is why they would target the Belgian consulate. I mean really didn't Belgium speak up for Iraq yet they still were the first ones to get bombed in Morocco?

[Edan]

Originally posted by Oerdin
This whole thing is so sad. What I'm really confussed about is why they would target the Belgian consulate. I mean really didn't Belgium speak up for Iraq yet they still were the first ones to get bombed in Morocco?

You expect rationality from terrorists? I thought lack of rationality was one of the prerequisites of being a terrorist...

[Oerdin]

If there is a silver lining to these senseless violience it is that Al Qaeda's reach appears to be effectively confined to the Arab world. The post 9/11 security increases are having the desired effect of keeping Islamic fundimentalists out of western countries.

Now Al Qaeda seems to be turning it's attention to weaker Arab states which have helped stop their attacks in the past.

[Az]

If there is a silver lining to these senseless violience it is that Al Qaeda's reach appears to be effectively confined to the Arab world. The post 9/11 security increases are having the desired effect of keeping Islamic fundimentalists out of western countries

like those British terrorists that exploded in Tel Aviv some time ago?

[The Mad Monk]

Were they Al Queda?

[Oerdin]

I'm leaving Israel out of this since no matter what you guys are going to get hit with terrorists. Sorry, but that is the truth.

[Az]

But they were Brits. It's not like the usual palestinians.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Azazel
No, but there is Ceuta and Melilla. (spelling? )

The spelling is correct, Azazel . However I haven't hear/watched any news that told me the terror attacks that cost the 41 lives (two of them, spanish lives) where related to any of the two cities. Reason for the attack could be (inmho):

1) To attack any western country

2) To attack a country that supported USA in the last war

3) To have a vengance for the unfortunately affair of Isla Perejil/Leia (the tiny, stupid, unuseful rock we were going to move on war for )

The Spanish media is not given any information about a jew restaurant, I believe, for the info I've read, that the attack was directed against Spain, nor the jewish restaurant...

[Eli]

Oh wait, it's Morroco. I was sure it all happened in Yemen.

Now Dal's statement about the two Spanish cities is clear. For the past two hours I was trying to figure out what the hell Spain is doing in Yemen.

[Az]

yaroslav: since we didn't talk to the terrorists themselves, it can be anything. But of course, your newspapers were probably against the war, and now are writing this to say, "aha! told you we shouldn't have supported the US!", or something.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Azazel
yaroslav: since we didn't talk to the terrorists themselves, it can be anything. But of course, your newspapers were probably against the war, and now are writing this to say, "aha! told you we shouldn't have supported the US!", or something.

It could be, Azazel, in fact I wrote it as the 2nd reason... but I don't believe so. Why? Because the Belgian Consulte has also been attacked.

EDITED: The goverment had deny any bound between the war and the attack. The main party of the oposition has not linked them, but state that

"the war was going to rise the hate towards western world, and with more terror, you get more attack"

[Sandman]

Just for the record, it should be pointed out that Morroco has problems with it's claims on Western Sahara, so it could be possible that this is related. Not likely, I'll admit.

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Sandman
Just for the record, it should be pointed out that Morroco has problems with it's claims on Western Sahara, so it could be possible that this is related. Not likely, I'll admit.

As far as I know, the Polisarian Front (that want a Free Western Sahara) has never used suicide bombers before