France issues 'please explain' to US - Page 11

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 17:51

Sloww: You have said it all about the American foreign policy. Out of the mouths of babes....

Ned · May 17, 2003, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
"is it your position that the people of Iraq do not want liberty?"

Not at all. All cultures evolve towards a more libertarian position. Im saying that they shuold not be pushed. They want liberty (i assume), but they want it their way, an Arab, Muslim way, not a Western judeo-christian way.

I do not disagree with this. We need to accommodate traditional values and religion with liberty.

Have you, though, ever hear the crying begging women and mothers who had escaped Saddam's Irag telling how bad it was to live under that monster and who begged, literally begged the US to help do something about it? While there can be differences in ways of life, there is no difference when a people want to live in a world of security and not of fear. When the fear comes from one's own government, something is seriously wrong.

I beleive there is a genuine happiness in Iraq that Saddam is gone. Americans can justifiably feel proud that we help "liberate" the Iraqi people.

The Mad Monk · May 17, 2003, 17:52

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
"French governmental traditions have been a slow evolution toward ever-greater absolutism, until people sick of the mismanagement overthrew everything, started a democracy that rapidly fell into mob rule, collapsed, and reverted to absolutism in another form for a time (Napoleon), after which it reverted to monarchy, for a time"

You ever been to France?

No.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 17:53

I fear that within a few months/years, that happiness will turn to dust.

The people who undoubtably have been hurt by Saddam are deserving of our asylum, and help. Is this reason to go to war? Is there a rebellion, with a clear number of people that are undoubtably against the dictator... a number of people that one can help militarily? No there isnt. Is Iraq attacking another nation? No. Has Iraq attacked anyone since '91? No.

War is unjustified. Simple as that.

DinoDoc · May 17, 2003, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
They are fun to read...

Not really. It was boring and in someplaces indicative of shallow thinking.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 17:54

Then post about its culture, its politics, its history etc when you have spent time there, looking at the people, the society the culture.

Do not take everything you read in the media and the history books, as truth. Use first hand information where possible. Second hand information tends to be rather sketchy.

HershOstropoler · May 17, 2003, 17:56

Well MM, how absolutist was France over history? Maybe you want to dicuss the role of the Parlements in that regard? Or the provincial estates?

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 17:56

"in someplaces indicative of shallow thinking"

Where?

The Mad Monk · May 17, 2003, 17:58

So you cannot write about anything about something you haven't experienced first-hand?

What a myopic world view you've condemned yourself to.

Ned · May 17, 2003, 17:58

You know what we need here on Apolyton, a member from the French right. I think most of the French posters here are from the French left. Not so? The problem we have with France today is coming from Chirac, a Gaullist. The Gaullists appear to French nationalists in strong contrast to the left who might approach anti-Americanism from a more traditional communist point of view.

The Mad Monk · May 17, 2003, 17:59

Educate me, HO.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:00

"So you cannot write about anything about something you haven't experienced first-hand?

What a myopic world view you've condemned yourself to"

God what is this? "Lets Strawman Ben Elijah day?"

Of course one can write and speak about stuff with 2nd hand information, but it carries less weight than first hand information. When 2nd hand info leads to BS, I say so!

The Mad Monk · May 17, 2003, 18:02

"Then post about its culture, its politics, its history etc when you have spent time there, looking at the people, the society the culture."

Your words, not mine.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:03

Figure of speech. Of course you can post about it, but dont expect me people to take it seriously, when and if they have better information available, which gives a different responce.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:05

Hypothetical situation. I am a nation that dislikes America. I speak against it, I reason against it. I am of equal economic but inferior military power.

What does America do?

HershOstropoler · May 17, 2003, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Educate me, HO.

You only have to do some reading on the Parlements, especially the disputes about their power to reject the registration of royal laws.

As for the estates, shouldn't be that hard, as the national assembly arose from the estates of the realm. But besides that there were provincial estates.

As for the legal system of the time, there's an excellent book investigating court cases in Burgundy 1600/1780, especially insofar as they include the invocation of fundamental rights. It's called "Archäologie der Grund- und Menschenrechte" IIRC; I can give you the full quote when I'm in the office on Monday.

Lefty Scaevola · May 17, 2003, 18:10

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
elijah: Long dissertation posts tend to get ignored as a general rule. .

Particularlar with a glaring stupid error in the 2nd sentence.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:11

Sorry... SOC typing leads to many errors. I assume u mean a type or grammar?

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:13

*typo

I dont see why long posts are ignored. If so, we would not have a limit of 20'000 characters. If I need to make some points, and a long post is the best way to do that, then I will. If people cant be bothered to read or analyse it, then fine, but you may be behind in my argument.

Anyone got an answer to my hypothetical yet?

Lefty Scaevola · May 17, 2003, 18:14

Nope, grammer and spelling do not count in such posting, wich go more under conversation rules than written language rules.. I meant putting the French Republic before the USA republic in time.

On An earlier challege of yours, repeated by Mad Monk above, I have been to France, as well as most of western Europe, and back in freindlier days in the early 70s, and the one nation there that I did not enjoy was France. But that was largely a matter of the northern French urban society, I understand the country side and south is much mor amenable.

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:16

Sorry... momentary lapse

Plenty of other examples... venice, or even post magna-carta England (not an example, but a showing of the evolution).

The Mad Monk · May 17, 2003, 18:16

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler

You only have to do some reading on the Parlements, especially the disputes about their power to reject the registration of royal laws.

As for the estates, shouldn't be that hard, as the national assembly arose from the estates of the realm. But besides that there were provincial estates.

As for the legal system of the time, there's an excellent book investigating court cases in Burgundy 1600/1780, especially insofar as they include the invocation of fundamental rights. It's called "Archäologie der Grund- und Menschenrechte" IIRC; I can give you the full quote when I'm in the office on Monday.

Sounds interesting -- Monday, then.

I had thought that the Parlements were by-and-large powerless against Louis XVI and later. When did this change, if it was in fact the case?

Menlas · May 17, 2003, 18:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Ned
You know what we need here on Apolyton, a member from the French right. I think most of the French posters here are from the French left. Not so? The problem we have with France today is coming from Chirac, a Gaullist.

Yes, but Chirac only did what most of the people wanted. I doubt the fact he's a Gaullist really played a role: he was mainly opportunist here (as he has so often been in his career btw).

I am myself rather from the left, but I approve some of the right's decisions.

The Mad Monk · May 17, 2003, 18:18

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
Sorry... momentary lapse

Plenty of other examples... venice, or even post magna-carta England (not an example, but a showing of the evolution).

Gee, now where have I read that?

Whaleboy · May 17, 2003, 18:22

Whoever said venice I'm sure will forgive me!

"The problem we have with France today is coming from Chirac, a Gaullist"

The problem we have with America today is coming from Bush; a ****.

Critic the politicians or the people, you critic the nations. That is what counts here. The nations. Perhaps we should lay off people, otherwise we will revert to stereotypes that do no-one any good. I am as guilty of that here as anyone, but lets talk about the Nations and their trends.

Worthingtons · May 17, 2003, 19:16

It's all about the Nations is it? well in that case people like yourself elijah do a damn good job of embarrasing our nation in front our great American Friends.

You are correct in that a country cannot be solely judged on the decisions thier leaders make, but dont forget in France a lot of people are supporting Chirac's decisions - which is why France is taking all of the stick here and not Germany (altho it's fair to say most Germans supported thier leader too, as the War was his main election policy).

This thread seems to have attactred every frog around, and i dread to think where it might end.

cinch · May 17, 2003, 19:18

NYE:

Quote:

Time to try another tack, but oh no, not for the French and some of the other Euros. There is never too much time for talk. We can talk and talk and talk until the next big building blows up, then maybe we'll do something, or maybe we'll talk some more...

The French, some of the Euros, and Canada, you mean. Can't forget Canada.

Quote:

I think I mentioned how the French have been constant annoyances to someone or other since 1945 when they were given their country back to them after not having the balls to keep it for themselves.

The 340 000 French soldiers who sacrificed their lives for their country were cowards, then?

I can understand being ticked off by the DeGaulle "Vive Le Quebec Libre" thing, but that is a little much, don't you think?

Worthingtons · May 17, 2003, 19:22

For those 340,000 there were probably another 680,000 who surrendered. I've said too many times how the embarrasment of this is one of the main reasons for the French being bitter.

Menlas · May 17, 2003, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy

This thread seems to have attactred every frog around, and i dread to think where it might end.

And, worse than that, it seems to have attracted every stupid France-hater, desperately trying to recall Napoleon's defeats, which certainly have A LOT to do with the subject of this thread.

Menlas · May 17, 2003, 19:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
For those 340,000 there were probably another 680,000 who surrendered. I've said too many times how the embarrasment of this is one of the main reasons for the French being bitter.

ROFL

What did I just say ?