France issues 'please explain' to US

[DinoDoc]

Just to pick up on an interesting threadjack I was attempting awhile back.

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Exemples, please.

US vs Great Britian: Rounds 1 & 2

USA vs CSA

World War I: France, Belgium, Great Britain, the USA, et. al. vs. Germany

The Occupation of the Ruhr

Finland during World War II

[GePap]

You are right, anti-war people do become irrational when they get into an anti-Bush froth. good to see you agree most of the stuff posted here was pathetic, really.

it nice to see you can see the correctness of this position NYE

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap

Quote:

Well, we were\are under attack. Bush is responsible for preventing further attack. He gets to pick the plan and he will be responsible if it fails. That's just the way it works. So I don't know who is or isn't being rational. I just know that the system is working the way we planned it to.

There are just so many things to say about this comment, so many!

Lets begin: Iraq has 0 to do with 9/11, (attacking Iraq does nothing to weaken Al qaeda, the ones that carried out 9/11, as this week shows), except ina a round about way: the American people would support the pres. attacking anywhere if they thought it would somehow make them safe post 9/11: 9/11 gave the admin. the excuse they needed to carry out policies they had pre-planned but could not have pushed politically otherwise.

2. "The system is working out like he planned it to"? Yeah, those folks in Bali, Moroco, Riyahd, tunis and so forth, well, they were part of the plan! Ohh, and I guess Bushed knew Osama and a large sectyion of the ladership would get away, or ..so forth and so on.

Iraq was, well, about Iraq, not 9/11. People who think Iraq is about 9/11 are overlooking some very BIG things along the way, and if they think attakcing Iraq will make us safer from Al qaeda, well, that is just another huge misconception.

Well, I only have one thing to say in response. Maybe you don't see the connection, but the Bush administration has explained why they think there is a connection, and I think their plan is clear. So you can disagree, but you don't get to decide. Furthermore, for now the American people support the president.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap
OK, time for a mod to ban this moron above , hopefully permanently, and if it is a DL, to get the genius (can such a person be called that?) behind it and ban them for some time.

You have to report it to the mod. Otherwise, they may not find out about it.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap
Pro-war people become irrational when they get themselves worked up on an anti-french froth, just like anyone is irrational if they work themselves up on some 'rage' againt something.

So yes, the irrationality in this thread is quite real, and more pathetic than funny, really.

Gepap,

The thread is about the French who are upset because of the bad press that they are getting in the US. Quit threadjacking please.

[GePap]

The Bush's administrations "explination" are very poor, and all the other info out there about this admin. is more than enough to see a different route by which we got to invade Iraq.

So what if the American people support him? No one said they didn;t, but the American people are very willing to believe those in power right now.

And i did report that "GUY" to the mods.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Gepap,

The thread is about the French who are upset because of the bad press that they are getting in the US. Quit threadjacking please.

I am threadjacking! what page is this? 15?

That is just funny!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Quit threadjacking please.

Or at least help with my jack regrading the theory of the democratic peace.

[GePap]

What, that you think it is a silly idea? Or do you back the notion?

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap
The Bush's administrations "explination" are very poor, and all the other info out there about this admin. is more than enough to see a different route by which we got to invade Iraq.

So what if the American people support him? No one said they didn;t, but the American people are very willing to believe those in power right now.

And i did report that "GUY" to the mods.

I forgot how this is connected so I'll just leave it.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
What, that you think it is a silly idea? Or do you back the notion?

I'm in the "It's a silly idea" camp at the moment.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap
You are right, anti-war people do become irrational when they get into an anti-Bush froth. good to see you agree most of the stuff posted here was pathetic, really.

it nice to see you can see the correctness of this position NYE

Sure. There's a lot of dander up and high emotions, on both sides.

But a couple of things are still true, no matter how much it is argued. The Yanks are being very aggressive in their prosecution of their aims to change conditions in the ME so that a repeat of 9/11 is less likely. And the French have set themselves up in opposition to that.

A lot of people don't question that the French should make a fuss over the intentions of the Yanks. I question them making a fuss over the displeasure many Yanks feel regarding the position of the French.

[Bereta_Eder]

France

Too bad it has to pretend to care about overemotional children

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm in the "It's a silly idea" camp at the moment.

Well then, go with Ethiopia-Eritrea 1998. I believe both were classified as democracies then. but, hey it's africa, so who cares, right?

NYE:

There is a difference between what we get from people on these bords about the french, and another thing when you have the Us cut back its participation in the Paris airshow, the Congress renaiming foods, the Prez. planning to stay in switzerland and not France during the G8 summit in france, so forth and so on. That goes beyond "the people" and into the realm of "those in power", and the French do have every right to complain that those in power in the US right now are using and stoking anti-french sentiment.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap
NYE:

There is a difference between what we get from people on these bords about the french, and another thing when you have the Us cut back its participation in the Paris airshow, the Congress renaiming foods, the Prez. planning to stay in switzerland and not France during the G8 summit in france, so forth and so on. That goes beyond "the people" and into the realm of "those in power", and the French do have every right to complain that those in power in the US right now are using and stoking anti-french sentiment.

So, the French government should feel no reprecussions when they actively oppose American foreign policy?

Yes, the fries thing was the Yanks pandering to the Enquirer crowd. But what do you expect the adminstration to do with their new opponent? Proceed as if it is business as usual? I think it's pretty naive to believe that a state can come out swinging on an important issue to another state, and have that state just say 'OK'.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by paiktis22
France

Too bad it has to pretend to care about overemotional children

Why?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Look, I wasn't making a judgement about French diplomacy. I was just saying that it was against the US interest. Now that's fine if you have calculated that you will get bad press in the US for it, but now they are just whining because of the bad press as though they didn't expect to get it.

Our Foreign Minister is asking the US government to take steps so that its services stop giving false rumors to the media that will further hurt France's image.
At least, that's what I read in the article.

Even though nobody is happy here on the consistent degradation of France in the US media, our government isn't trying to shut the FOX up.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap


Well then, go with Ethiopia-Eritrea 1998. I believe both were classified as democracies then. but, hey it's africa, so who cares, right?

NYE:

There is a difference between what we get from people on these bords about the french, and another thing when you have the Us cut back its participation in the Paris airshow, the Congress renaiming foods, the Prez. planning to stay in switzerland and not France during the G8 summit in france, so forth and so on. That goes beyond "the people" and into the realm of "those in power", and the French do have every right to complain that those in power in the US right now are using and stoking anti-french sentiment.

So are you saying that the French should complain or that they just have the right to?

[GePap]

So, the French government should feel no reprecussions when they actively oppose American foreign policy?

Of this sort, specially since France is an ALLY of the US? NO.

The double standard between what france, and lets say, Germany or Russia (or turkey for that matter) 'suffer' shows that anti-French attacks are based on more than just opposition to US Iraq policy, even "active". Let me add, of course, that the only "active" French acts agains the US's invasion were based on defeating a single US-Uk draft resolution that the US actively stated they did not need anyways to justify war, so again, what is being done against the French goes way beyond what the french did, if one takes a calm, rational look at actions, without self-righteous blather.

So yes, the admin. should, move on without these sorts of moronic and utterlt childish acts.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kidicious


So are you saying that the French should complain or that they just have the right to?

They have the right. What they do is their business.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Our Foreign Minister is asking the US government to take steps so that its services stop giving false rumors to the media that will further hurt France's image.
At least, that's what I read in the article.

Even though nobody is happy here on the consistent degradation of France in the US media, our government isn't trying to shut the FOX up.

I don't know what the specifics are on the accusations so I read it another way. Do you know what the specifics are?

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap


They have the right. What they do is their business.

That isn't an answer to my question. You already stated that you think they have the right. That's not in question. Of course they have that right.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


Happiness is a french woman. Will someone help me in my quest to find a french wife?

I have a female friend who is all alone for a few months no, but she is still a tad young to get married (19 years old). I also have another firend who loves the USA, but she has many problems.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by GePap

Quote:

So, the French government should feel no reprecussions when they actively oppose American foreign policy?

Of this sort, specially since France is an ALLY of the US? NO.

I think that's what might be under review.

The double standard between what france, and lets say, Germany or Russia (or turkey for that matter) 'suffer' shows that anti-French attacks are based on more than just opposition to US Iraq policy, even "active". Let me add, of course, that the only "active" French acts agains the US's invasion were based on defeating a single US-Uk draft resolution that the US actively stated they did not need anyways to justify war, so again, what is being done against the French goes way beyond what the french did, if one takes a calm, rational look at actions, without self-righteous blather.

So yes, the admin. should, move on without these sorts of moronic and utterlt childish acts.

Germany and Russia said they didn't like it, and would say so in any vote.

The French went out and campaigned in the media and among nations against it. They tried to silence support for the Yanks within Europe. There is a bit of a difference.

You may say that resolution was nothing, but obviously the Brits and Yanks didn't think so, otherwise they would not have put in effort to get it. Besides, what does it matter where the president stays during some visit? So far it is diplomatic *** for tat. What are you getting so excited about?

[Worthingtons]

Gepap, you seem to steriotype the whole pro-war camp, which most consistant of quite a lot of people around the world eh?

Expected better.
Cheers
Matt

[GePap]

Originally posted by notyoueither


I think that's what might be under review.

actually, no it isn't.

Germany and Russia said they didn't like it, and would say so in any vote.

The French went out and campaigned in the media and among nations against it. They tried to silence support for the Yanks within Europe. There is a bit of a difference.

You may say that resolution was nothing, but obviously the Brits and Yanks didn't think so, otherwise they would not have put in effort to get it. Besides, what does it matter where the president stays during some visit? So far it is diplomatic *** for tat. What are you getting so excited about?

What diplomatic *** for tat? The French aren;t remaing foods, urging boycottsd, and all that other idiocy.

And what I am getting so excited about (you seems to have been very excited at bashing the French earlier, so I guess the question also applies to you) is that we have a bunch of self-righteous idiots helping to undermine one of the most important pillars of world security today, the US-Europe relations, for no worthwhile benefit at all (anyone who thinks "new Europe" can replace "old europe" within the next 50 years is mad)

Quote:

So are you saying that the French should complain or that they just have the right to?

Quote:

They have the right. What they do is their business.

Quote:

That isn't an answer to my question. You already stated that you think they have the right. That's not in question. Of course they have that right.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Rothy
Gepap, you seem to steriotype the whole pro-war camp, which most consistant of quite a lot of people around the world eh?

Expected better.
Cheers
Matt

Plu-Ease

No, I am not stereotyping the whole pro-war camp, only those that came here to indulge in midnless French bashing. There were plenty of pro-war people that did not join in.

[notyoueither]

GePap, the French do a good enough job of undermining alliances, as I posted earlier in this thread. There are many people, in many countries 'allied' with France, who have every right to be very unhappy with the French government now, and in the not too distant past.

And you know, somehow I don't think a bunch of Canadians being unhappy with a French president kick-starting a seperatist movement in our country are being self righteous idiots.

[Kidicious]

Gepap,

The thread isn't about the war. You're making it out to be.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
You know what we need here on Apolyton, a member from the French right. I think most of the French posters here are from the French left. Not so? The problem we have with France today is coming from Chirac, a Gaullist. The Gaullists appear to French nationalists in strong contrast to the left who might approach anti-Americanism from a more traditional communist point of view.

Most US apologists in France come from the right, if not all of them. During the pre-war diplomatic crisis, former PM and influent advisor Alain Juppé suggested to tone down the opposition in order not to rip apart the transatlantic friendship.

However, it is true the right-wingers can be antiamerican to some extent, and this antiamericanism is the result of the clash of egoes between our two countries. Both France and USA are countries with universal values, i.e countries which know better.
And the typical antiamericanism in France comes from the fact we are pissed that the cowboys are now in charge rather than the rational and intelligent us (ok, I'm exaggerating ). More seriously, the American messianism bothers the left wingers like in most other left-wings in the world. And it pisses some right-wingers because it is not France which is doing the job.
There was a classical assumption in the wake of the French enlightenment that France was a special country which was lucky enough to host this enlightenment, and had to spread it around the world. At least, it was the ideological background behind the agressive wars waged by the Revolution and by Napoleon. This "Civilizing Mission" was also the ideological justification of the African colonization.

This messianism is a real trauma to me, as it has been a complete failure. The noble ideas behind spreading democracy and modernity to the world have been spoiled by megalomania, greed, and the ignorance of what the targeted populations wanted.
When I see Bush's US, I think they are doing exactly the same mistakes as 19th century's France. Exactly the same.