DM Building Timeline

Kloreep · May 17, 2003, 17:13

I still haven't finished orders for the next chat, though I said I would have them up on Friday.

At least I still seem to have some time, since the next chat isn't scheduled. But here's something in the meantime.

Sharpe made a table like this for me to use in Legoland (Tiberius created the nice HTML layout). I find this can help me (and hopefully all of you, too

) see the queues more clearly, and hopefully it will generate some discussion.

A green entry means the city grows on that turn; red means pop loss - a poprush, a settler/worker completion, or starvation.

Updated with more Archers, less spears. We may have a lack of garrisons with this method, and thus need to use the lux slider (or else we'll have specialists - ick).

Code:


Turn Asgard Trndhm War Luck Bergen YelwCity

53
Arch-8
Set-29
Bar-10
Bar-14
 


54
Arch-13
Set-Comp
Bar-12
Bar-17



55
Arch-17
Arch-3
Bar-14
Bar-Comp



56
Arch-Comp
Arch-6
Bar-16
Arch-3
Founded


57
Arch-5
Arch-9
Bar-18
Arch-6
Bar-2


58
Arch-10
Arch-12
Bar-Comp
Arch-9
Bar-4


59
Arch-15
Arch-15
Arch-2
Arch-12
Bar-6


60
Arch-Comp
Arch-18
Arch-4
Arch-15
Bar-8


61
War-5
Arch-Comp
Arch-6
Arch-18
Bar-10


62
War-Comp
?-3
Arch-8
Arch-Comp
Bar-12


63
?-7
?-8
Arch-?
Bergen
Bar-15


64
?-13
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
Bar-18


65
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
Bar-Comp


66
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


67
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


68
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


69
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


70
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


71
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


72
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


73
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


74
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity


75
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
YelwCity

Inverse Icarus · May 17, 2003, 22:07

we have at least 15 turns before we can declare war on the ottomons again.

as far as i'm concerned, thats who we're hitting again. their land is good, it's close, it's a natural extension of our own.

The archer rush time is dwindling, but it's still our best bet, as the zulu took our ponies, and the ottomons are going to get our iron.

we need to hit hard, as soon as possible, while still defending our homeland.

i would request 6 archers and 2 spearmen, initially. with that, we could move out and take Edrine, and then we could push towards Istanbul or Uskudar.

it's likely some archers will fall in our attacks, so i'd request refresher units to start moving in right after the initial army has started marching (hopefully, 2-4 more archers and a spear). that should be more than enough to seriously injure the ottomans, leaving us the options to exploit them, or eradicate.

Kuciwalker · May 18, 2003, 01:30

What does "-comp" mean? What is a "Set" or a "Bar"?

Epistax · May 18, 2003, 02:35

COMPlete
SETtler
BARracks

Kloreep · May 18, 2003, 18:03

Updated to try to fit Uber's Archer requests. Note that the Otto peace treaty expires in 10 turns, so we could technically attack that soon, though I'd say 15-20 is the feasible timeline. Note that we'll have a garrison shortage if the troops leave within 10 turns or so (that's when they LEAVE our territory, not when they ARRIVE at the Ottoman border, so they could be sent that soon). Asgard will produce an extra warrior that can help garrison, but we may end up using the Lux slider in short bursts till some more warriors or other garrsion can be produced; that could be alleviated if Asgard turns its 3rd pop into a specialist to do our 40-turn researcd, which actually might not be a bad idea, much as I hate specialists; otherwise, we'd have both 10% science and 10% lux, and that could be a noticable drain on income.

At any rate, we'd have four more archers in 9 turns with this plan (not counting time to move those four archers into a stack). Combined with the Elite archer in Warrior's Luck, that would be 5 of Uber's requested 6 archers. Asgard could produce a 6th archer in 12 turns (3 turns after the 5th Archer) if need be, though that would slow down its growth (forest). It all depends on when we want to attack; the farther in the future, the more time we have to establish a home garrison, and the more juicy cities the Ottos will establish, but the Ottos will also build up more military.

Kuciwalker · May 19, 2003, 17:56

ah, thanks

Hot_Enamel · May 19, 2003, 20:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep
Updated to try to fit Uber's Archer requests. Note that the Otto peace treaty expires in 10 turns, so we could technically attack that soon, though I'd say 15-20 is the feasible timeline.

Probably a stupid question...and the answer is probably in the manual or on the strategy forum somewhere... but....

When I have a 20 turn peace treaty, the AI always wants to renegotiate for an extra 20 turns on the turn the treaty expires.
I obviously would prefer no formal agreement, but the AI always requests it, and I cant "decline" without declaring war.

So in SP, I find myself always at war exactly every 20 rounds...or if I am not ready in 20...I end up being forced to wait 40 turns.

Kloreep · May 20, 2003, 01:12

dp

Kloreep · May 20, 2003, 01:12

Very good point HE. I'll start a new thread on this with my reply.

MrWhereItsAt · May 20, 2003, 07:02

I replied in that thread, but reading this one made me think a little more... We don't want peace for another 20 once this period expires, so if they want a reneg then I think we should just reject them and be at war. We are hoping to be almost ready for an attack on that turn anyway, so it won't make much difference.

MrWhereItsAt · May 20, 2003, 07:34

Just had a closer look... as of the save (1700BC = turn 53), there are 10 turns before the peace treaty terms end. In this time we will have 5 Archers, going by the above plan. All of these Archers can be in Warrior's Luck or one tile closer to the Ottomans at the end of turn 63, or 4 of them can be there BY turn 63. This outs aside the matter of Spears to defend.

With this in mind, it is possible to ignore any reneg on turn 63 and have troops in place to defend (or attack from) Warrior's Luck as soon as the war is on.

There are two flaws I see to this plan - one more serious than the other. We have no defenders there, so unless we arrange them somehow, we may get unlucky at times if they have a larger stack than our own. More risky is the fact that we don't know all of the Ottos land, so they may have Horses, which would make large Norse steaks out of our Archers. Of course the Horses issue applies whenever we attack.

So, is it acceptable in ten turns time to have this many Archers around to protect ourselves and maybe take Edrine without Spears and with the risk of facing Horses? If not then we either have to hope the reneg doesn't happen and we can choose when to attack, weather the war until we ARE ready to attack, or reneg and cope with the bars snapping closed on our Archer-rush window.

In any case, I suggest we move the Archers to Warrior's Luck ASAP anyway, so we can prepare for our war with the Ottos.

BigFurryMonster · May 20, 2003, 10:00

I believe they built a (coastal) city on a Horses resource, so they might send in Horsemen.

I seriously doubt whether 5 Archers would be enough, but I do not have much experience with early Archer wars.

GodKing · May 20, 2003, 17:13

They do have horses, as BFM says, under one of their cities.

5 I do not think is enough. We will be sorley pressed, particularly if we do not have any defenders.

Kloreep · May 20, 2003, 17:48

They do have horsies. Whether they have them connected, I don't know; I'm not sure how long ago it was we had the area scouted.

As for defense, we would need to take one or two spears off of garrsion duty. The Warrior produced in Asgard could hopefully compensate.

I agree we'll be sorely pressed, and I agree it's a risk, but I think it's better than giving them another 20 turns to build. We stand a good chance of taking Edrine, I think; we'll need more Archers after that, yes, but we can make an okay first offensive against Edrine with a little spear cover.

realpolitic · May 20, 2003, 18:27

5 archers is not enough for war.If we don't build new barracks we'll have 8(4 or 5 regulars),if we take an extra city worth them it will be well worth the wait on barracks. The truth is we don't know what we'll be attacking: warriors, archers or 1/3 spearmen. Regular archers do fine against these.

Panag · May 20, 2003, 19:56

hi ,

great chart kloreep

, ..... a barracks would be nice , ....

archers , okay , but the are an offensive unit , .... what to do about defense , .....

have a nice day

Kloreep · May 20, 2003, 22:44

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
great chart kloreep

Thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

, ..... a barracks would be nice , ....

Err... have you looked at the save recently? Asgard and Trondheim both have one (plus Bergen and Warrior's Luck after the recent turnchat), and our major cities are building them first thing after founding now.

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
archers , okay , but the are an offensive unit , .... what to do about defense , .....

We're definitely skimping on spears right now. That's because Uber requested 6 archers for the first stack, and the Ottoman peace treaty is coming up for renegotiation soon, so we can attack basically at our leisure (unless the Ottos want to renegotiate the peace treaty for some reason, in which case we'll have to attack early, even earlier than we'll want). Once we have 6 or 7 Archers produced, there'll be some more spears, don't worry.

Panag · May 21, 2003, 16:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep

Thanks.

Err... have you looked at the save recently? Asgard and Trondheim both have one (plus Bergen and Warrior's Luck after the recent turnchat), and our major cities are building them first thing after founding now.

We're definitely skimping on spears right now. That's because Uber requested 6 archers for the first stack, and the Ottoman peace treaty is coming up for renegotiation soon, so we can attack basically at our leisure (unless the Ottos want to renegotiate the peace treaty for some reason, in which case we'll have to attack early, even earlier than we'll want). Once we have 6 or 7 Archers produced, there'll be some more spears, don't worry.

hi ,

, we should put a couple spears with them archers , before they are going into combat , .... imagine we get war declared by an other civ , .....

two archers , one spear , two archers , one spear we should build like that , ....

have a nice day

OneEyedYoda · May 21, 2003, 18:26

just a suggestion....is it possible mount a diversion that would lure the computer's forces to another city before we strike our first target?

...such as threatening one of their newer cities with a unit or two and hope they respond??

Kloreep · May 21, 2003, 19:11

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

, we should put a couple spears with them archers , before they are going into combat , .... imagine we get war declared by an other civ , .....

two archers , one spear , two archers , one spear we should build like that , ....

We already have 3 spears, and so I felt we should go pure Archer for this chat. As I said, there should be some spears in the next set of turns.

Quote:

Originally posted by OneEyedYoda
just a suggestion....is it possible mount a diversion that would lure the computer's forces to another city before we strike our first target?

...such as threatening one of their newer cities with a unit or two and hope they respond??

Might work if it was several turns before the main force. However, I'm not sure we'd want to start the war early for a ruse like that; the sooner we do, the sooner the AI switches to military production and starts poprushing. But this is the SMC's field, not mine; I'm not a very good general.

Panag · May 22, 2003, 09:45

Quote:

Originally posted by OneEyedYoda
just a suggestion....is it possible mount a diversion that would lure the computer's forces to another city before we strike our first target?

...such as threatening one of their newer cities with a unit or two and hope they respond??

hi ,

, could work , it would ( if i succeeds ) put us at better seat at the negociations , .....

aften it does help to retreat your troops from tour main cities and do a classical pincer movement , ...

have a nice day

realpolitic · May 23, 2003, 17:50

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

, [a diversionary attack] could work , it would ( if i succeeds ) put us at better seat at the negociations , .....

aften it does help to retreat your troops from tour main cities and do a classical pincer movement , ...

have a nice day

I agree on the diversion, my vote is 2 archers if we can put 6-8 on the main attack, but a pincer movement? By that do you mean we split our forces on 2 cities, and have the survivors of the two attacks go after a major city? We don't have the troops. There's nothing wrong with giving them a black eye, then 20 turns later having a major war. We have 300-400 turns left.

Panag · May 24, 2003, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by realpolitic

I agree on the diversion, my vote is 2 archers if we can put 6-8 on the main attack, but a pincer movement? By that do you mean we split our forces on 2 cities, and have the survivors of the two attacks go after a major city? We don't have the troops. There's nothing wrong with giving them a black eye, then 20 turns later having a major war. We have 300-400 turns left.

hi ,

pincer is one solution , going two ways can also create some havock , the AI does count a classical military move , just go around and knock on the backdoor , ....

those two archers should have a spear with them , why , well to hold grounds as long as possible , .....

have a nice day

OneEyedYoda · May 24, 2003, 22:32

well, the diversion doesn't really have to hold ground for very long. If it does succeed in drawing enemy units away from our real target, or if the comp simply ignores them and heads for our cities, they can run back to our cities as garrisons.

Or perhaps we can even send an archer or two early to their cities in the back (and hold them in position outside the border while our main force assembles before declaring war) to either distract or cut roads, etc...

Panag · May 25, 2003, 09:55

Quote:

Originally posted by OneEyedYoda
well, the diversion doesn't really have to hold ground for very long. If it does succeed in drawing enemy units away from our real target, or if the comp simply ignores them and heads for our cities, they can run back to our cities as garrisons.

Or perhaps we can even send an archer or two early to their cities in the back (and hold them in position outside the border while our main force assembles before declaring war) to either distract or cut roads, etc...

hi ,

normally the AI goes for a diversion , he has to react , .....

on deity the ai send for example 20 troops to get rid of one simple foot unit , .....

why , because the AI tend to get all its units at a couple places when in war and use them at only a couple places , .....

this results in a great force at the battlefield , but the cities behind are often guarded by draftees or a couple units , ...... a deadly mistake in anyone who takes this to his or her advantage , ....

have a nice day

Kloreep · May 26, 2003, 23:41

Here's a new timeline.

A green entry means the city grows on that turn; red means pop loss - a poprush, a settler/worker completion, or starvation.

Code:


Turn Asgard Trndhm War Luck Bergen Cpnhgn

61
Arch-Comp
Arch-8
Arch-6
Arch-18
Bar-4


62
War-5
Arch-12
Arch-8
Arch-Comp
Bar-6


63
War-Comp
Arch-17
Arch-11
Spear-4
Bar-8


64
Spear-7
Arch-Comp
Arch-14
Spear-8
Bar-10


65
Spear-14
Arch-5
Arch-17
Spear-14
Bar-12


66
Spear-Comp
Arch-10
Arch-Comp
Spear-Comp
Bar-14


67
Spear-7
Arch-15
Arch-3
Arch-7
Bar-17


68
Spear-14
Arch-Comp
Arch-6
Arch-14
Bar-Comp


69
Spear-Comp
Trndhm
Arch-9
Arch-Comp
Cpnhgn


70
Asgard
Trndhm
War Luck
Bergen
Cpnhgn