Bomb goes off in Marijuania's capital

[Whaleboy]

A huge explosion has been felt all over Marijuania's capital, New Amsterdam.

Casualty reports are coming in, we can confirm 236 dead, that figure is sure to rise.

The bomb exploded in a university district of the city, killing people on their lunch breaks.

A group closely linked to the Revolutionary Council has claimed responsibility for this act, as the new police force and emergency services, and the new army move in to restore order in the City.

This will prove to be a test for Marijuania's new counter-terrorism department, utilising some unique classified techniques to counter this group.

We will keep the region fully informed of these developments, as this group has threatened other nations, including Oral Fixation, Stanleystan, Akiria and Zetaris. We suspect those nations in geographical proximity to Marijuania to be at risk. We are nation 69 on the map.

These groups are in no-war affiliated with the new Marijuanian government, and their acts DO NOT constitute an act of war. Our intelligence suggests that this group comprises 40-70 individuals. We offer all affected nations our full assistance in dealing with these. All those guilty of atrocities in other nations, found in Marijuania, will be handed over to the respective nation.

Marijuania pledges to deal with this situation, and when it is over, we shall publisise our techniques.

[Drogue]

Dammit, will people never learn If you release that you are looking for them before you've found them, they will go into hiding! Don't they teach you anything at counter-terrorist school

We believe that we have information regarding this group, that we shall send to you via a secure channel, as a number of Akis (non state controlled of course) were involved with the revolutionary government during the Athkala and Method crisis in Marijuania, in an effort to undermine the Athkalans. These links have no been severed, as the terrorist cell they were working with has gone underground.

Akiria and Zetaris thank the government of Marijuania for their warning, but do not believe they are in danger. It is notoriously difficult to launch a terrorist attack there, because of the 24 hour public survailance, the large police force, the satallite images, and the very large, but undisclosed, number of Akis (see military thread for details) involved in counter-espionage.

[Whaleboy]

Of course Akiria and Zetaris are much stronger targets than Marijuania, but it is still our moral duty to warn other nations we believe to be targets, as there is always a possibility that they will succeed, and we want to minimise that possibility.

The idea is that we do release that we are looking for them.

< secure info >
The military communications division, with the help of MIST (the Marijuanian Institude of Science and Technology) have made contact with the leaders of this terrorist organisation. Negotiations have begun. A team of noted sociologists are analysing this current situation, while the military counter-terrorist branches are preparing themselves.

We are now authorised to publish out counter-terrorist techniques. Unlike other infamous methods (lots of bombs, lots of soldiers), we have realised that the best military equipment in the world is useless against a few determined individuals, and use of that equipment and tactics, while most effective against a similiarly armed foe, will be ineffective against terrorists, and seem to cause more.

We have determined that this terrorism have been caused by aspects of Marijuanian policy. There are two sides to every coin, and we endeavor to understand the terrorists, their causes and motivations, so we can effectively combat this irritation today, and effectively prevent it in the future.

The first Gemini-class sensory satellite of Marijuania's has been placed on full alert, and is currently monitoring all communications of the terrorists on Marijuanian soil. Civilian communications are generally too strongly encrypted to track, not that we would want to, and foreign traffic surveillance is of course out of the question. We are using our surveillance responsibly and effectively to solve this problem.

< / secure info >

[Drogue]

No only do you debate with terrorists, you change your policy due to terrorism Surely that will cause anyone who disagrees with government policy to become terrorists.

The governments of Akiria and Zetaris will never bow to terrorism. If the population want something, and a small terrorist organisation want another, you can be damn sure which one we're going to go with.

[Whaleboy]

Every side has a coin. If a people feel oppressed, and Marijuanian society is doing something they see as immoral, then we'll see what we can do. There is a solution to terrorism that doesnt involve guns.

If our people want something as a general consensus, it isnt breaching the Mill Limit, and it isnt hurting or being immoral to a small group, then they get it. We are not a tyranny by majority, and we damn well arent a tyranny by minority!

We are a peaceful nation, will only use force as a last resort in defence of us or our friends, and that stage has not, and undoubtably will never be reached.

We dont believe that "fighting talk" like "we will never bow to terrorism" is helpful here. It merely serves to antogonise, and doesnt do much to fight the problem, unless that problem is a lack of good sound-bytes.

[Whaleboy]

Because we have a large conduit of influence, people wont automatically turn to terrorism just because they disagree with us. The fact that they do turn to terrorism shows that the CofI has failed, which we will also look into.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by elijah
Every side has a coin.

Ok, so think of Northern Ireland. Say the majority want to stay affiliated with the UK, but a minority doesn't. The minority starts bombing. Do you then discuss seperation, and bow to the terrorists? We do not. The majority want affiliation, therefore they get it. This is not an issue about rights to do something, it is a pure choice about one of the other. The Euro would be another thing, although I can't see people firebombing over that

[Drogue]

Originally posted by elijah
we damn well arent a tyranny by minority!

If policy is dictated by a terrorist minority, then I am afraid you are the very pinacle of tyranny by majority

[Whaleboy]

I'm not saying we give in, I'm saying that there is a compromise solution. I'm also saying that while some things we cannot budge on, there are other causes for that terrorism that aren't necessarily related to their demands.

Strictly according to the Mill Limit, we are a tyranny by majority when the society wants to breach the Mill Limit of a small number of people. That is of course, something we wont allow.

A tyranny by minority is when the rights of the individual breaches the Mill Limit in the sense that they have too many rights. That has not occured here, because if we were to help the terrorists in stopping their actions in a "carrot" manner, then we would not allow the Mill Limits of anyone to be broken.

A Mill Limit society can theoretically exist, in the anarchist sense, without a government. Of course it couldnt function effectively, but my point is that government functions and changes to them are perfectly valid whilst they stay within the Mill Limit. One can technically have a Mill Limit society, that has moved beyond the need for democracy, as political rights are totally merged with civil rights, however that would not be prudent for Marijuania at this stage.

The people elected a government to run the country within the Mill Limit, and that is what we shall do. We tread the fine line between tyranny by majority and tyranny by minority, with perfect balance.

[Whaleboy]

The revised casualty figures are as follows: 1276 dead, with 23'342 injured.

We obviously hope that figure does not rise New Amsterdam's medical facilities have been stretched, but are coping. Counsellors have been sent to the bereaved.

[Drogue]

with perfect balance.

Nothings perfect, especially now with a

The revised casualty figures are as follows: 1276 dead, with 23'342 injured.

proceeding it. Obviosuly appeasement is not working perfectly.

I see it as a very fat line, with the ML towards one end. Thus it is not tyranny, by any means, but neither is it the only non tyrannical form of government.

[Whaleboy]

You fail to reason why it is a "fat line" and not a fine line.

The "appeasment" as you inaccurately put it, hadnt begun yet with these terrorists. The negotiations have obviously begun now.

These negotiations, and indeed all government functions, have little to do with the Mill Limit, except its maintainance. As such, it is not prudent to attack my balance between the tyrannies, over an issue that has nothing to do with it!

[Drogue]

And you failed to explain why it is a

fine line between tyranny by majority and tyranny by minority

I merely think it is not, as I have explained to you before. I see tyranny as an extreme, with a lot in the middle. Tyrannical governments are few and far between IMHO, and thus there are many diffeent types of governments that I would not call tyrannical. Many different types, and thus quite a fat line, to encorporate all those different types. Negotiations with terrorists=appeasement to me.

[Whaleboy]

Perhaps.

Tyranny by majority is a government that impedes the rights of the individual, while minority impedes the rights of society. In that sense, I suppose that one must have a government that treads that path between, but that path still leaves them with options that does not turn them into either tyranny. In that respect, I concede, but it must surely mean that you concede that Marijuania, as a Mill Limit society, and its government by taking these actions has not become "the very pinacle of tyranny by majority"

[Whaleboy]

That is of course assuming that government actions are factored into a degree of tyranny.

By saying that it is a thin line, one is saying government actions as x, y, or z. Y is the line between, z and y are the tyrannies. In that sense, (tyranny by majority or tyranny by minority), then it is a thin line. Government actions that do not breach the Mill Limit of either side are y, and are that factor in between. Also consider that with regards to the people and society, a ML government can only either maintain the ML, or break it in one way. The ML is theoretically clear cut, (although different interpretations can have ambiguities), so in that respect, as so far as a government can deal with a society and individuals, it is a very thin line.

This of course does not exclude the governments right and ability to take different courses of actions, none of which break the Mill Limit.. In this sense, I believe you are viewing possible government actions as the determining factor in the width of this line between the two tyrannies.

However, my more more aesthetic solution is perhaps harder to comprehend than the more simplistic interpretation above, where a governments rights and abilities, and resultant number of courses of action, is factored into the width of the line between the two tyrannies. Take your pick, it is a relatively tiny issue, one knows when the government actually becomes a tyranny.

[Whaleboy]

"Negotiations with terrorists=appeasement to me"

Why? Appeasement implies giving them what they want. It also implies giving an inch, them taking a mile (hitler style), although I dont think you mean that.

Depending on their demands, we may not give them what they want, but can still have a successful negotiation, in which we give them what they need to stop terrorism, in other words, change the conditions created by Marijuania, and actively help to rectify them, so as in order to prevent more terrorism, and make the terrorists happier, more productive citizens.

We fail to see the taboo in negotiating with terrorists. It is a simple economic/game theory scenario. It serves no purpose to be irrational, especially since the non-talking approach can lead to more bloodshed. Bloodshed is that last thing we want, Marijuania has seen enough of that in recent days.

[Jack_www]

Jackson does not negotiate with terrorists, we hunt them down. The USJ special forces can be deployed to take care of them if you wish.

[GeneralTacticus]

Negotiation with terrorists is only harmful if you refused to negotiate beforehand, as this demonstrates that terrorism is effective and encourages more of it. Do recall, also, that simply because someone is a terrorist does not invalidate their cause; it makes them, and anyone who supproted them in carrying otu terrorism, guilty of whatever crimes they have committed (murder, arson, whatever), but this guilt doesn't necessarily extend to others who support the same cause as them. To put it another way: terrorism is wrong, and must be punished, but it doesn't invalidate the cause in which it's undertaken.

[Whaleboy]

We concur with GT.

We warmly thank Jackson for his kind offer, but we believe we can handle this effectively ourselves, it is a perfect opportunity for our sociologists and psychologists to understand the the terrorist so as to prevent it from happening in the future.

By changing the conditions that create terrorism, we can stop it in its tracks, nipping it in the proverbial bud before it becomes a menace. They may well have a perfectly valid cause which needs to be addressed, and once that is the case, with a little "greasing of the wheels", terrorism will stop.

Information on the progress made thus far in the negotiations will be published shortly. When we have successfully dealt with this threat, Marijuania will hold an international party, to which all nations are invited! Rock on!

[Whaleboy]

The terrorists concerns are as follows...

Marijuanian tulip industries have been slowly encrouching on the land used by independent growers of a small community of Stanleys on the Northern side of the Marijuanian Isles. The independents are now out of business, unemployed and suffering great hardship.

Thus far, due in part to their geographical location, separated from the rest of Marijuania by a mountain range and high-altitude desert (perfect for growing high-power hash), they have had little voice in Marijuania. These terrorist acts were a cry for help, our psychologists have concluded.

They demand a restoration of the communist Revolutionary Council, who controlled the tulip corps. This is of course unacceptable, however, we hav already offered incentives to the Tulip corps to scale back and locate elsewhere.

They know that they are close to breaching the Mill Limit, and upon that event, they will be dissolved or split up. As such, their survival is dependent on their cooperation here. We have started work on a space-propulsion R&D facility, concentrating on Ion Drive propulsion, in the area where that community lives, so as to increase employment in the area. They will be paid a good salary, not peanuts. Their children will be educated in the same way as the rest of Marijuania, and their sick will be cared for at the same standard.

We await the terrorist organisations response. Our negotiations have gone well, have concentrated thus far on building trust, and destroying their myths about us being monsters. In the meantime, we have learned about them, and have realised that they are not blood-crazed hate-filled lunatics.

We also have a secret (and obvious) way to make negotiators from all sides, drop their differences and start to join together in a brotherly harmony. Of course that isnt necessary, but we could help outselves! (Anyone who has seen the Ali G movie will know what I'm talking about).

[Whaleboy]

We report success in our negotiation attempts. The great joy of this occasion has been overshadowed by tragic events in our allyJackson however.

Nonetheless, the Revolutionary Restorers have agreed to stand down, and put the perpetrators of the outrage in New Amsterdam up for arrest and fair trial. Development in the area of the Stanleys continues, and the economy and quality of life has already shot up, as has our development of Ion Engines

[Drogue]

Originally posted by elijah
In that respect, I concede, but it must surely mean that you concede that Marijuania, as a Mill Limit society, and its government by taking these actions has not become "the very pinacle of tyranny by majority"

I won't gloat I do concide that Marijuania is not the pinacle of tyranny by majority (did I say that?). I do not think it is the least tyrannical system, or rather, the closest to the middle of the fat line of non-tyranny, but I do accept that it is in that line, and thus is neither tyranny by majority nor minority. In other words, we agree on where it is

Originally posted by elijah
Why? Appeasement implies giving them what they want. It also implies giving an inch, them taking a mile (hitler style), although I dont think you mean that.

Nope, I mean giving an inch, and them taking an inch. An inch is too much to concide because of terror tactics.

Originally posted by elijah
We fail to see the taboo in negotiating with terrorists. It is a simple economic/game theory scenario. It serves no purpose to be irrational, especially since the non-talking approach can lead to more bloodshed. Bloodshed is that last thing we want, Marijuania has seen enough of that in recent days.

The problem is, if you show that you negociate with terrorists, then many more people will resort to terror tactics to get their opinions heard. The only way to educate people that terrorism isn't the way to get your view heard, is to refuse to negotiate with terrorists. If they stop using terror tactics, then they can have a seat at the bargaining table. It is like strikes, if you give into the strike issue, you get more strikes, as the workers see that you give into them.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
To put it another way: terrorism is wrong, and must be punished, but it doesn't invalidate the cause in which it's undertaken.

I agree, but I feel the only way to stop people resorting to terror tactics, is to refuse to negotiate with people who are terrorists. If others want to bring that point, or if terrorists stop using terror tactics, then they can negotiate. They must stop terrorising first though.

[Whaleboy]

We have not given them what they wanted though. We have created the conditions required to prevent future attacks. We were quite able to go in and kill them all, but we did not want to do that because it is a waste, and an immoral waste. If the negotiations failed, we would have had to forcibly arrest or neutralise them, unless we were satisfied they were no further threat, in which case they would be charged for the atrocities in New Amsterdam.

We do not take victrionic or stubborn (on a national scale) attitudes towards terrorists. It is a crime, and mostly a cry for help, and like we said, there are two sides to every coin. Just because we are their victims, does that suddenly mean our attitudes should logically change? Marijuania is ruled by its head, not by its heart or its testicles. As such, if we "give an inch" and thus not suffer future attacks and avoid unnecessary bloodshed, then it is worth it.

I reiterate... we did NOT give them want, we gave their community what they needed to prevent future attacks. We would have done the same were we not attacked, it is just the attack that brought their plight to our attention.

There wont be any future attacks because Marijuania is proactively helping problemed communities become educated and prosperous. As soon as someone blows themselves up, it does not suddenly turn them into some kind of untersatan. We react accordingly.

"I feel the only way to stop people resorting to terror tactics, is to refuse to negotiate with people who are terrorists"

That is based on the assumption that most terrorists are out to obtain something via negotiations. Most are not. The demands of the Revolutionary Restorers were too unreasonable to be met, even they admitted to that. Look at the word TERRORism. It is fear weapon, more of a publicity stunt than a means of blackmail. It is a way of showing the world how resolved they are, and how fanatical they are, but underneath, also how desperate and hurting they are.

Terrorists will not achieve their aims through bombing Marijuania, just as they wont through bombing Akiria. The difference is, that we will negotiate with them, and give their communities what they need, we view it with a level head, rather than going in and killing/arresting them, which doesnt do anyone any good, as it is more likely to perpetuate the vicious circle of terrorism.

We have stopped terrorism in Marijuania, the New Amsterdam tragedy we will ensure, will be the last. No-one else has been killed, those guilty have been peacefully brought to justice and are currently being re-hab'd. Their community, from living in squalor, despair and pain are now prosperous, educated, happy and contributing.

Id say that we've had a pretty successful episode!

[Whaleboy]

" I won't gloat"

I know . I confirmed that according to your simplistic model of looking at my political situation (which over-applies occams razor imo), you are correct. According to my more sophisticated transdimensional image (which gives a thin line), I am also right, and am walking that line between tyranny by majority and minority.

For example:

"closest to the middle of the fat line of non-tyranny"

If one is in that line, one is at the pinnicle. If you like, according to your image, it is a mountain with a plateau at the peak, so to speak.