Abortion......I will now use my psychic powers to predict the most popular....

Vesayen · May 17, 2003, 19:32

mothers day card 20 years from now, with the current trend society is taking:

*concentreates*

To My Dearest Mother
I am Glad I was Convenient
Thank you for not Aborting me
-Mostly ambiguous to you *yournamehere*

orange · May 17, 2003, 19:48

would you prefer it be done in back alleys by maniacs with coat hangers and steak knives?

Vesayen · May 17, 2003, 19:58

Quote:

Originally posted by orange
would you prefer it be done in back alleys by maniacs with coat hangers and steak knives?

I find it hard to feel sympathy for someone who dies as they try to commit a murder......

Skanky Burns · May 17, 2003, 20:10

I predict this thread will be aborted.

Lorizael · May 17, 2003, 20:12

You didn't answer the question, Vesayen. If a person wants something, they will do whatever it takes to get it. Just look at Prohibition. Making things illegal just makes it all the worse when it does happen.

Vesayen · May 17, 2003, 20:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Lorizael
You didn't answer the question, Vesayen. If a person wants something, they will do whatever it takes to get it. Just look at Prohibition. Making things illegal just makes it all the worse when it does happen.

The only case it is acceptable is when the mothers life is known to be in danger(less then 1% of all abortions in America)....

Your making the assumption I would think it is bad if someone dies-regardless of the reasoning.

Bad assumption.

If someone dies because they want to kill their baby with a coathanger, anything that they get is well deserved(Think of it as Karma)-if nothing else it will be a reason to have sex responsably.

St Leo · May 17, 2003, 20:17

Aaah, two people with the same avatar arguing opposite viewpoints. This is the Seventh Sign of the Apocalypse!

Personally, I prefer International Women's Day over Mother's Day because I think it sends a healthier message.

Vesayen, abortion will never become the primary method of birth control (and without reactionary opposition to birth control, it is likely to never even be used in twenty years due to superior prevention).

Lorizael · May 17, 2003, 20:46

Well that's where the difference lies then, yes.

I think violence is wrong in all cases.

Btw, my opinion on abortion is pretty wavy right now. So I'm actually not arguing against Vesayen, more playing devil's advocate.

People always say it's the woman's choice, but when it concerns the creation of an individual human being, it really isn't.

I think my indecision in this area comes from not knowing when a fetus is human. I have no qualms regarding the soul or the argument that the fetus will become a human, I just don't want an actual human being to die.

My avatar was chosen at random, iirc. I'm about fifty posts away, but I'll never get there. The disappointment of Civ III drove me away from that forum and forever placed me in the OT.

Drogue · May 17, 2003, 20:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesayen
To My Dearest Mother
I am Glad I was Convenient
Thank you for not Aborting me
-Mostly ambiguous to you *yournamehere*

Actually, this is not a million miles away from what I do feel about my parents. I am thankful that they chose to have me, to raise and care for me, and to take a large chunk of their life to devote to me. I thank them for choosing to have me. I am thankful because it is such a huge sacrifice, and I do not feel that they had any duty or obligation to give up that sacrifice. It was their choice to make, and I am thankful that they made that one. I owe my life to their choices, to conceive me, to care for me, etc. and the fact they had another one, whether or not to abort me, does not seem that significant to me. The reason I am pro-choice, is because I do not see a difference between choosing not to conceive, and choosing to have an abortion. Either way, a child is not born, that could have been. Also, I see abortion not just as the killing of an unborn child, but I see it as the mother choosing to remove her services. I think that is the womens right. I don't think my parents ever had an obligation to care for me, before or after I was born. That is why I am thankful that they did.

Is it so bad to be convenient? Are not planned children planned to be convenient, at convenient times in their parents lives?

Lincoln · May 17, 2003, 20:58

Quote:

Originally posted by orange
would you prefer it be done in back alleys by maniacs with coat hangers and steak knives?

No, it should be done in sterile clinics by educated opportunists with no ethics. How does the fact that it is now done by doctors using medical instruments make it right?

Boris Godunov · May 17, 2003, 21:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesayen
mothers day card 20 years from now, with the current trend society is taking:

Actually, the current "trend" is a dramatic decrease in the numbers of abortions performed and a shift in public opinion towards less approval for abortion.

More babies have been prevented by condoms and birth control than by abortion. So will Father's Day cards read:

"Dear Dad, thanks for not wasting your spunk on another orifice. Love, Timmy"?

Shi Huangdi · May 17, 2003, 21:13

"Just look at Prohibition. Making things illegal just makes it all the worse when it does happen."

So what about prohibition of comitting murder? We don't stop banning murder because we can't put an end to all of it. Abortion is also a great crime, and we should also not allow the fact that we can't stop all abortion from banning them.

MRT144 · May 17, 2003, 21:13

its the lesser of two evils lincoln. its like telling teens not to have sex. you might as well provide them with some jimmy sacks if they are gonna do it anyway.

Boris Godunov · May 17, 2003, 21:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Abortion is also a great crime, and we should also not allow the fact that we can't stop all abortion from banning them.

So is using a condom a great crime as well?

Vesayen · May 17, 2003, 21:18

Quote:

Originally posted by MRT144
its the lesser of two evils lincoln. its like telling teens not to have sex. you might as well provide them with some jimmy sacks if they are gonna do it anyway.

If a teen cant keep their pants on, any harm that comes to them is entirley their fault...... I turn 18 in a few weeks-im saving it for marriage-if I can, so can they.

Boris Godunov · May 17, 2003, 21:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesayen

If a teen cant keep their pants on, any harm that comes to them is entirley their fault...... I turn 18 in a few weeks-im saving it for marriage-if I can, so can they.

No problem.

So, now that the teens are forced to carry to term a baby that they don't want, they can become terrific mothers, right? I mean, they wouldn't possibly resent the child, would they?

Or they can just give them all up for adoption. Just look at how much room our orphanages and foster homes have today...why, I'm sure another million kids a year added to it won't be any problem!

You don't mind paying for those kids, do you? Because I know conservatives tend to be against social welfare, which would include the necessary institutions to care for these kids. You do think the government can adequately raise these kids until they are 18, right? I mean, foster kids would never turn out to be criminals or anything, would they?

Lincoln · May 17, 2003, 21:25

Quote:

Originally posted by MRT144
its the lesser of two evils lincoln. its like telling teens not to have sex. you might as well provide them with some jimmy sacks if they are gonna do it anyway.

Well at least you see it as evil. That is a good start.

MRT144 · May 17, 2003, 21:27

Vesayen, why do you hold teens responsible for actions that will ruin their life, and the childs life, when it doesnt have to be that way.

I completely agree with boris.

if i had my way, after your first abortion you are put on birth control immediatley, after your second, youre sterilized.

Lincoln · May 17, 2003, 21:31

Actually Boris there are many thousands of people waiting to adopt children. There is not a lack of willing parents who could raise an unwanted child. Anyway, surely killing the kid should not be an option, or should it? I saw a talk show on TV once where a father was pleading for his girlfriend not to abort their baby. He was roundly condemned by the audience for being so selfish in not wanting to kill the child before he had a chance to live with a mother who did not want him. I think that logic is rather twisted.

Shi Huangdi · May 17, 2003, 21:33

Boris, no doubt there will be difficulties for that child if it is born. That doesn't meany they have a right to murder it.

MRT144 · May 17, 2003, 21:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Lincoln

Well at least you see it as evil. That is a good start.

i dont think anyone goes around advocating abortion as the only end to a pregnancy. i think its universal that people dont like abortion, but sometimes it is the best option for the people involved.

Lincoln · May 17, 2003, 21:38

at least all the people except the baby.

Drogue · May 17, 2003, 21:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesayen
If a teen cant keep their pants on, any harm that comes to them is entirley their fault...... I turn 18 in a few weeks-im saving it for marriage-if I can, so can they.

Sure, that's your choice. Some teenagers cannot control their urges that well, and many do not want to wait that long. Just because you can, and have chosen to, doesn't mean that should. What about those who don't believe in Marriage, or those who never find the right person? Should they be condemned to a life of celebacy?

Vesayen · May 17, 2003, 21:42

"So, now that the teens are forced to carry to term a baby that they don't want, they can become terrific mothers, right? I mean, they wouldn't possibly resent the child, would they?"

Then they shouldnt of had sex-or should of used better protection. Responsibilities for your actions? I know-its a foreign concept in our society.

"Or they can just give them all up for adoption. Just look at how much room our orphanages and foster homes have today...why, I'm sure another million kids a year added to it won't be any problem!"

Would you rather be in a foster hoom, or not born? You know the answer to that.

"You don't mind paying for those kids, do you? Because I know conservatives tend to be against social welfare, which would include the necessary institutions to care for these kids. You do think the government can adequately raise these kids until they are 18, right? I mean, foster kids would never turn out to be criminals or anything, would they?"

Your drawing other-wordly conclusions..... people make it sound like our countries adoption/foster care system is the seventh level of the thirteenth pit of hell...... most people come out of them fine...... Im not a liberal or conserative btw, I have views of both sides(and wish both the Republicans and the Democrats would fall into the sea).

"Vesayen, why do you hold teens responsible for actions that will ruin their life, and the childs life, when it doesnt have to be that way."

The child's life isnt neccesarily ruined...... and who are you to decide whether someones life is "worth living" or not? There is a TREMENDOUS amount of information given to most teens in America now a days about sex and the responsabilities..... if they choose to ignore that information and risk it-thinking that it only happens to "other people" that is their risk-if you play russian roulet dont complain when you get the bullet....

"if i had my way, after your first abortion you are put on birth control immediatley, after your second, youre sterilized"

In stay of a ban on abortion, I'd agree for that also.

Jaguar · May 17, 2003, 21:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue

Sure, that's your choice. Some teenagers cannot control their urges that well, and many do not want to wait that long. Just because you can, and have chosen to, doesn't mean that should. What about those who don't believe in Marriage, or those who never find the right person? Should they be condemned to a life of celebacy?

...or they could just spend a few bucks to buy the damn pill.

Cruddy · May 17, 2003, 21:48

Personally, I never comment on abortion.

Why?

Because I'm a bloke. It's none of my business.

Vesayen · May 17, 2003, 21:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue

Sure, that's your choice. Some teenagers cannot control their urges that well, and many do not want to wait that long. Just because you can, and have chosen to, doesn't mean that should. What about those who don't believe in Marriage, or those who never find the right person? Should they be condemned to a life of celebacy?

If you dont have self control, your an animal, and deserve to be treated as one......

"Just because you can, and have chosen to, doesn't mean that should"

Your trying to say that it is entirley my choice, therefore it is wrong to empose that choice on others-showing I am somehow morraly incorect, thus my viewpoint is...... the problem with that line of reasoning is that you entirley forgot the fact that the result of that iresponsability may en up with a murder(abortion), which is one HECK of an imposment on another pe rson-so your wrong.

"What about those who don't believe in Marriage, or those who never find the right person? Should they be condemned to a life of celebacy?"

They should be DAMN sure to use the pill regularly.

MRT144 · May 17, 2003, 21:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Lincoln
at least all the people except the baby.

thats if you believe the baby is viable at conception

Drogue · May 17, 2003, 21:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
...or they could just spend a few bucks to buy the damn pill.

Which also completely messes up hormones, and chas many side effects. I would never force anyone to take medication, unless they were seriously mentally ill.

Lorizael · May 17, 2003, 21:52

People should use protection, Vesayen, but no form of protection (save abstinence) is perfect.

Should a child be forced into an environment with very poor conditions simply because of an accident? The creation of life shouldn't be able to happen because a piece of latex tears.

Obviously, abstinence until a stable, child friendly environment is in place would be the best possible situation, but to only teach abstinence will lead to a lot of sex without any protection.

Take Texas for example. They stopped teaching methods of protection other than abstinence, and now they have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the United States.