civ3 suggestion: public access to its api

jobuck · May 17, 2003, 20:16

Hi,

That's would be great if we could access to some civ3 api to do this:

people can use these API to wrote piece of code to play against the civ3 ai.

I mean, through these api, you can for e.g. access all the data that your civilization is aware about.
You can also control all others thinks, like create new warrior, settler or what ever, move your unit and so.

That's would be wonderful !

We can also imagine tournament against the ai wrote by each people and use civ3 as the battle field.

What a great, wonderful and motivating challenge !

Agathon · May 17, 2003, 21:14

I don't think they'd do that.

Spiffor · May 17, 2003, 23:53

I agree this would be an excellent experience from a player point of view, and it is very likely that the work of several dedicated fans will make the AI even better than it is.

But I fail to see what commercial gain Atari will find in it. I see much of the commercial loss though

I hope Atari will release the code once Civ3's cannot bring money anymore (e.g when the Gold edition will be too old to even be sold as a low-price game), but even that is unlikely.
I don't remember Infogrames opening the sources of any of their old games.

jobuck · May 18, 2003, 05:11

Hi,

providing public API doesn't mean that you get an access to the source code.

The interest for Atari would be to make this game more popular. In more, As long as have civ3 is gaining against others, its reputation will increase.

I think there is so some commercial aspect here interesting for Atari.
Because I think a lot of peoples would love work on such challenge.

And if they open a dedicated web site for this, they can still put publicity. They can also sale the add-on to the game allowing to use the civ3 battle field and develop customized ai.

jobuck · May 18, 2003, 17:50

I found a place where people interesting on creating a civ3 game environment able to support personal ai can be discussed.
I will move from this place I found as I found a better one. Probably I will open a website on sourceforge.net once I'll have made the version 0.01alpha
To create the battle field side of the game, I'll reuse the image delivered with civ3. They will be changed if Firaxis complain about this.
Until that moment, people interested to follow-up this project, interested to participate to it or willing to provide suggestion can do it here:

http://www.webtoday.biz/board/index.php?c=5

jobuck · May 18, 2003, 17:51

Sorry, here:
http://www.webtoday.biz/board/index.php?c=5

jobuck · May 18, 2003, 17:53

Okay, the poly board don't accept session' link.
So just kump here and select the rts forum'
http://www.webtoday.biz/board

Spiffor · May 18, 2003, 19:37

Well, good luck with your project !

Maybe you should advertise for this project in the Creation forum, as well as on other Civ3 forums such as CivGaming and CivFanatics

However, I'd advise you to contact the moderators via Personal Messages (PM) first, in case they don't like the advertisement for another forum.

For 'Poly, you can contact Ming.

jobuck · May 18, 2003, 20:28

I understand the point that they could not like url pointing to others forum.
So perhaps should I say instead, somewhere in the cyberspace, there is a forum.
The reason why I ask to open a dedicated forum is because this website allow me also to publish code, as well as run a weblogic application server.

I apologize for those who don't accept such url and of course, the moderator is free to remove the url I have mention.

Thank's spiffor for your advise, such as posting article into the place you mention !

Ekmek · October 28, 2003, 10:39

CTP2 sourcecode to be out soon and the AI needs to be worked on there

Theseus · October 29, 2003, 03:03

:claps:

jobuck is RIGHT on target!

You guys at Firaxis and Atari listening??!!

Collaboration with the customer base...

Maquiladora · October 29, 2003, 05:26

Yep, the CtP2 source code has now been released, im sure theyd welcome your input joebuck.

WarpStorm · October 29, 2003, 06:21

You are assuming that the AI is an easily accessible API. It might not be.

Grim Legacy · October 29, 2003, 11:43

As a sidenote- I think many companies underestimate the effect that releasing (older) sourcecode and/or providing people with Abandonware titles has. I for one appreciate this very much. It extends the impact of the game and its producer. I recently enjoyed playing Master of Magic again, a game that is like Civ1 (but with Fantasy gameplay) and is freely downloadable now.
The same beneficial effects and potentially even stronger ones come from opening up proprietary code elements so that users can make interesting additions and modifications. You do not need to give away core code that has commercial value to do this. I think that Civ with its scenario facilities has already gone some way with this.

In contrast, companies that do not do these things project an image of penny-hogging and show a determination to get the very last dusty bargain bin 6-diskette set sold, even if the buyer of said product will not get a solid playing experience for his/her money.

Stuie · October 29, 2003, 11:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy
I recently enjoyed playing Master of Magic again, a game that is like Civ1 ... and is freely downloadable now.

Legally?? Where??

WarpStorm · October 29, 2003, 12:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Grim Legacy
As a sidenote- I think many companies underestimate the effect that releasing (older) sourcecode and/or providing people with Abandonware titles has. I for one appreciate this very much. It extends the impact of the game and its producer. I recently enjoyed playing Master of Magic again...

Your choice of example with Master of Magic is kind of ironic as the company (or to use your words producer) that made it is now defunct and all of its assets have been sold off long ago (I believe that Atari has the rights now, although there is a rumor of Sid buying it up from them).

Is this the impact that game companies want?

Panag · October 29, 2003, 12:11

hi ,

it would be intresting to see something like freeciv on a civ3 level , ....

but somehow the feeling is that it wont happen , ....

have a nice day

Grim Legacy · October 29, 2003, 16:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuie

Legally?? Where??

Look for it under "Abandonware" using Google or some such. There are a couple of websites offering it I think.

Grim Legacy · October 29, 2003, 16:54

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm

Your choice of example with Master of Magic is kind of ironic as the company (or to use your words producer) that made it is now defunct and all of its assets have been sold off long ago (I believe that Atari has the rights now, although there is a rumor of Sid buying it up from them).

Is this the impact that game companies want?

Is that so? I thought Microprose went up in Infogrames (later they in turn to Atari)... not really the same as "being defunct".
In any case I contest the notion that the impact I spoke of is somehow associated with bankruptcy or failure as you seem to hint at.

WarpStorm · October 29, 2003, 18:00

After having money troubles they were bought by Spectrum Holobyte (who then changed their name to Microprose). They went bankrupt and sold their assets to Hasbro who in turn sold them Infogrames who became Atari (who was a another bankrupt company whose properties were bought by Infogrames). The original company is effectively gone (although some of the major players are in Firaxis, Breakaway, Big Huge Games, and Retro Studios).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprose

Your example of an abandoned product that people are downloading (probably without Atari's say-so - abandonware is not a legal term) and modding, adds no credibility to your argument that exposing the API makes good business sense for the owners of the software (note, I'm not saying that it is or isn't, just that your example doesn't support it).

vmxa1 · October 29, 2003, 20:39

Yes legally in the US there no such thing as abandonware. If someone hold the rights anyone posting it and downloading it is breaking the law. The thing is that there is no RAIA going after them, so it goes on.

Grim Legacy · October 31, 2003, 05:51

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm Your example of an abandoned product that people are downloading (probably without Atari's say-so - abandonware is not a legal term) and modding, adds no credibility to your argument that exposing the API makes good business sense for the owners of the software (note, I'm not saying that it is or isn't, just that your example doesn't support it).

Ok, I agree that my example was indeed poor, as I was unaware of the fate of the associated company.
I still think that it shows goodwill to refrain from hogging old games that cannot be reasonably sold anymore because they are so dated.

Behold, I have another example to present (hopefully more convincing hehe): Steel Panthers.

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/WorldAtWar/

This is basically an old strategy game that is now a free download and that now enjoys a new players community and an active modscene.

Another game company has recently made a comparable move, albeit not the full release of an old title. They produced an online sequel/expansion to their basic game that can be downloaded for free and works on its own without the need for a previous purchase. I am talking about Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, of course. Already, this expansion is very popular and it's obvious that this fanbase will later materialize in paying customers for the next game in the series that the producer may come up with.

http://games.activision.com/games/wolfenstein/

WarpStorm · October 31, 2003, 06:49

Okay, those are two better examples. In fact, SPWAW is a much better game than the original store bought release. I don't think that allowing Matrix to massively mod it made the original copyright owners any money (or potential for future sales), but it is a good game.

In the case of Wolfenstein, what you are saying may or may not be true. They were intending for people to pay for Enemy Terrritory, but there was a decided lack of consumer interest with the current glut of WW2 games. They couldn't sell it so they gave it away. Will this actually increase sales of their next game? I doubt it unless the game shines on it's own.

Probably the best example for opening the API and it actually helping sales is Half Life. They milked the Counter Strike mod for what it was worth. They even charged people for boxed versions of what they could freely download. The didn't give the code away, you still needed HL, but they did give the mod away for free.

latka · October 31, 2003, 06:54

Why don't companies go after people for distribution of abandonware and why don't they make old products source code publicly available?

You play the game, so you should now, gold.

What is to be gained by trying to take these people to court? Are they making any money off of it? Are they including the code in other products?

The companies who abandoned the product have to prove damage was done to them and they have to pay attorneys to do this.

Do you really care if someone steals that old beat-up lawn chair from your back yard? Do you want to take the time and effort in filing your police report? Do you think they are going to get any type of punishment for something that you have shown that you don't care about. Remember, upgraded products are an indication that you care.

RAIA is going after people who are stealing current products, which money is to be made on. Do you see them going after anyone for downloading copies of Gene Autrey songs?

Now there are reasons for not giving out the source, which is protecting your intellectual property, which may still be in use in your current product. Or possible, hide the fact that you stole someone else protected property and they don't know. Let's not forget the embarrassment factor. After all, patches come out for a reason.

Let's also not forget about sub routine screw_the_idiot_who_actually_paid_for_this_piece_o f_crud. Do you want to spend the time and money cleansing the code for public distribution?

Now free distribution of old quality games does make sense, if you have a current release of that game. It is called marketing.

Panag · October 31, 2003, 14:41

hi ,

What is to be gained by trying to take these people to court? Are they making any money off of it? Are they including the code in other products?

Latka , well some companies are either gone , chapter 11 or an other , swallowed by a larger firm , etc , .....

but most firms feel that its a waste of time , and since courtcases cost loads of money , .....

that and due to the fact that the law , both intl and local ( when it come to the US and EU ) has many differences , .....

some people make money of it , and when they start to get loads of money they get a nice courtcase , ....

have a nice day

Inverse Icarus · November 29, 2003, 14:48

i think it was mike(?) who said "i don't like to provide scripting languages because the only power it gives the user is to create more bugs."

you think they'd let you at their API after that statement?

vmxa1 · November 29, 2003, 18:42

If you don't take action on copyright violations, you will have defacto granted a lic. IOW if you do don't the copyright is nullified.

That is why major corps go after mom and pop stores. To keep their copyrighted logo and names.

Games will no be able to protect any further versions that used the material, if they do not protect it.

vmxa1 · November 29, 2003, 18:46

The question I would have is why do people think they have a right to use others property. If I don't use my lawn mover can others just use it?

Oh I know they are corporations and hence they are evil, so we can do anything to them and it is ok, I forgot.

gunkulator · December 1, 2003, 14:50

I think it can reasonably be argued that releasing APIs and supporting scripting languages would significantly increase costs to game companies. Instead of one set of logic to debug, they would have to support hundreds, if not thousands of users trying to figure out why things didn't work the way they wanted them to.

Sure they could offer them with no support at all, however this tends to imply low quality or at least seems like deceptive marketing.
Outside the box: "Buy our new fully extensible game!". Inside the box: "extensiblity is not supported - don't call us if you break it".