AI opening embassy. Sizing me up?

peterfharris · May 18, 2003, 21:24

It may be my imagination but when an AI establishes an embassy with me they then seem very prone to attacking me. If I open the embassy it is O.K. but I have found that if it is the AI who established the embassy then I seem to regularly get attacked by them within maybe 20 turns or so.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I imagining things?

MrWhereItsAt · May 18, 2003, 23:36

It does seem to be an aggressive tactic for the AI. I haven't noticed them declaring soon after, however normally this happens to me where it is my largest rival from half a world away, where they can't do anything against me... yet.

Aramis · May 19, 2003, 00:06

Haven't noticed it in my experiences. Perhaps it happened and I attributed it to other factors. Do you play at the highest levels? That might make a difference. When I play at emperor or diety I'm way too busy trying to minimize my eventual defeat that I've no time to notice things like that.

rush · May 19, 2003, 05:08

I don't recall this happening to me. But I really wonder, what are the factors that determine whether someone will set up an embassy with me ?

Is it my land area, relative power, culture, or simply some Civilisations are more "prone" to setting up embassy than others ?

MrWhereItsAt · May 20, 2003, 00:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Rob_S
When I play at emperor or diety I'm way too busy trying to minimize my eventual defeat that I've no time to notice things like that.

Genius!

binyo66 · October 30, 2003, 01:00

I just finished Warlord Rome Standard game. I didn't open any embassy (avoiding mpp) after I destroying Egypt and Greek, and made me the only civ on a second biggest continent. Iraq, US, GR, UK and Aztec shared the largest continent.
1. After I met Aztec and bought some tech and contact, he opened embassy at my capital (don't know the reason).
2. US Opened embassy at my capital (looking for the maps, US was under attack with UK, Iraq and Aztec).
3. GR opened embassy right after he joined the war against US (and after destroying Iraq).
BTW I was the strongest, since I got no enemy and own a large continent alone.
Any clue ?

Note : I opened embassy to UK after I decided to destroy GR who was the strongest on the other continent (to do trade embargo against GR)

bongo · October 30, 2003, 04:01

Rob_S

How does this 'open embassy' stuff work anyway? Are embassies one-way only or do they work both ways? I rarely see AI open embassies with me but as I open embassies with the AI quite aggresively it may indicate that they work both ways.

UnityScoutChopper · October 30, 2003, 05:56

Yes, they work both ways. I always consider it saved money when they open with me. :-)

Must admit I haven't noticed higher aggressiveness in civs that found embassies with me.

CerberusIV · October 30, 2003, 06:04

I always assumed that the AI eventually gets round to opening an embassy when it has the spare cash to do so.

zorbop · October 30, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by CerberusIV
I always assumed that the AI eventually gets round to opening an embassy when it has the spare cash to do so.

this is what i thought, but if Peters theory is true i suppose it would be so they could spy on your cities to see what units you have where.

Peter, the other explenation would be that the AI opens the embassy for other reasons, but when they do they discover how weak your military really is and then decide to declair war (i am pretty sure this has happened to me).

Konquest02 · October 30, 2003, 22:23

Yes, but it's often quite nice to know what the AI is building in his capital, especially when you are in a wonder race. I will often do this. Kind of a first investigate city... However, if you let the AI establish the embassy, you don't get that sneak peak. In SP, it's not that big, but in MP, it can be quite an advantage...

--Kon--

GhengisFarb™ · October 30, 2003, 22:54

I haven't noticed any increase in agressiveness after embassy openings, but then I usually don't pay attention to them much.

Flip McWho · October 31, 2003, 03:19

I haven't noticed any extra aggressiveness either. Maybe it's the level i play on (Warlord). It's probably the level i play on.

I always establish embassies first. Usually if I don't establish the embassy then it wouldn't get established in a timely manner.

I always thought that the AI establishing an embassy was a sign that they weren't going to attack me. Why spend that money on someone your gonna attack soon.

ChrisiusMaximus · October 31, 2003, 03:38

To see how well defended your capitol is, and if they are willing to part with the cash to spy on your other cities.

But it could also be likely that an AI wants to offer some treaties and needs an embassy to do this. I have seen this only twice in my single player games, where X AI opens an embassy with me and then calls me up to sign an alliance against some other AI.

bongo · October 31, 2003, 03:59

Forget about the AI using an embassy to spy on your cities! It doesn't need to. One of the few cheats the AI use is that it is not bothered by fog of war so it will see where your units are no matter what.

ChrisiusMaximus , you're rigth. some treaties are only possible when you have an embassy

Konquest02 · October 31, 2003, 11:30

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
ChrisiusMaximus , you're rigth. some treaties are only possible when you have an embassy

More precisely, all of the diplomatic agreements tab: Right of Passage, Mutual Protection Pact and alliances against other civs.

Arrian · October 31, 2003, 12:26

Quote:

I always assumed that the AI eventually gets round to opening an embassy when it has the spare cash to do so.

And since the AI is often flat broke in the early game, it takes them a little while.

I typically pay to establish the embassies myself. IIRC, there is an attitude boost to having an embassy (I could be wrong on that one, though), and it lets me create alliances or RoPs if I feel the need. Plus I do get a snapshot of the AI's capitol. It's usually worth it to me.

That's playing on Monarch, standard map, 8 civs, continents (so usually 2-4 neighbors). If I was playing on Emperor on a huge map with 16 civs, it would be different. I'd probably pick a couple to establish embassies with (probably closest neighbors) and ignore the rest, because I probably couldn't afford to pay for them all.

-Arrian

binyo66 · October 31, 2003, 14:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Konquest02

More precisely, all of the diplomatic agreements tab: Right of Passage, Mutual Protection Pact and alliances against other civs.

I am agree. When US Opened embassy on me, she wants some helps (trading luxury or mpp), so did GR. I just doesn't know why Aztec opened embassy.

I have read someone investigating AI Attitude, how to get great leader etc, but it seems no one care about investigating embassy (and I am not good in playing civ3 and to do investigation).

zorbop · November 1, 2003, 23:12

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
Forget about the AI using an embassy to spy on your cities! It doesn't need to. One of the few cheats the AI use is that it is not bothered by fog of war so it will see where your units are no matter what.

really? i think that the AI has the ability to see the entire map, but still has fog for it. I do not think they have the ability to see cities or units they would otherwise not be able to... at least, that is what the prima strategy guide says (although it IS prima, they are often wrong)

GhengisFarb™ · November 1, 2003, 23:23

Its possible that the timing of embassies is simply determined by an income to treasury ratio.

bongo · November 2, 2003, 06:30

zorbop , the AI don't experience fog of war and it seems it got full map knowledge for some purposes but not for all. It cannot trade with other civ until it got map coverage of the route and it will not settle unknown areas.

MrWhereItsAt · November 2, 2003, 09:28

They do have an uncanny knack of landing on the one unsettled part of your continent when they do not even have your map though.... lucky buggers.

As far as I'm concerned, as soon as you make contact with an offshore civ they know the lie of your land and where any unsettled areas are - perhaps even before you make contact! It;s just too much coincidence the first you see of them is them landing where you don;t want them.

Cort Haus · November 2, 2003, 19:23

Opening embassies gives a positive attitude shift as do the RoPs that can be signed thereafter. AI's don't open them to spy - they know where all your units are anyway.

GhengisFarb™ · November 2, 2003, 19:49

True. But thats in the Human Player's favor not the AIs, the human feels however he feels.

bongo · November 3, 2003, 04:22

MrWhereItsAt , there seems to be a difference between continents and islands. From my experience, the AI will not land on islands until it get map-knowledge of it. If the continents are fully settled and you happens to discover an island, the AI will stay off it until you give them an updated map.

Harovan · November 3, 2003, 05:21

In the first two ages I open embassies only if I need them for an alliance, a RoP agreement or seldom to spy out the capital before I attack. That's true for all map sizes and difficulty levels. Sometimes AIs open embassies with me during this period.

Usually I open embassies with all civs in the industrial age, when I don't know what to do with all the cash anyway.

GhengisFarb™ · November 3, 2003, 21:24

I tend to let the AI pay to open them unless I need to get an idea of where their civ is located.

Kuciwalker · November 3, 2003, 22:31

Quote:

Originally posted by UnityScoutChopper
Yes, they work both ways. I always consider it saved money when they open with me. :-)

Must admit I haven't noticed higher aggressiveness in civs that found embassies with me.

I've never noticed it at all, but then again I usually open up embassies first.

dexters · November 4, 2003, 01:14

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
zorbop , the AI don't experience fog of war and it seems it got full map knowledge for some purposes but not for all. It cannot trade with other civ until it got map coverage of the route and it will not settle unknown areas.

The AI doesn't have an integrated brain like we do. Parts of the software running the game maybe omniscient but that doesn't mean the AI is omiscient. The AI consists of several modules that can be limited in what it can see.

There is certainly evidence that the AI will know where your weak border cities are, and where resources are, but there is no evidence it actively cheats.

The backend may simply have been programmed to bring up a list of perspective cities to attack and the AI merely prioritizes the targets from their relative weakness. In that case, the AI doesn't know what exactly you are doing, it just knows they can attack a certain co-ordinate because the algorithm dictating the leader strategies somehow formulated a list.

With resources, if you've watched a debug game, the AI leaders know where resources are, but city governors and workers don't see it, and thus, won't even hook a road to it. late game resources usualy go unroaded until the AI has the tech to see it. Unless of course, the resource happen to fall in a good tile that the AI would have improved anyways.

bongo · November 4, 2003, 04:26

dexters , part true. Some parts of the AI 'knows stuff' and others don't. But that part controlling the units never experience fog of war. I found out by accident. I was being harrased by AI inronclads and were moving transports(or galloens?) along my coast to gather an invasion force. I tried to sneak one of them past an ironclad and moved so close that it was within reach but out of view (thinking the AI wouldn't know it was there, I was wrong) The ai went straight at it. I reloaded multiple times and placed my ship in several different places. The only time the AI didn't head straight at it was when it was out of reach. I repeated this test on other occasions and it is 100% reproducable. Present the AI with an easy target that is out of view but in reach and it will head for it.