Blair Determined not to give British People a say on new EU Constitution - Page 2

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 07:42

But the media influences everything, the fact most of the media seems against Europe shoudnt suddenly mean we can't have a vote on it

Zulu Elephant · May 20, 2003, 07:45

I read in the Guardian that Germany doesn't hold referenda because of the Nazis abused the system.
Does anyone know what the Nazis did?

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 07:49

Used extreme propaganda
Used fear tactics to get people to vote as they wished
Prevented certain opposition groups from making thier vote

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 07:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
But the media influences everything, the fact most of the media seems against Europe shoudnt suddenly mean we can't have a vote on it

I don't mind the media being against Europe at all. What I don't like is the way they make it into some continuation of the second world war. It's the kind of crap you hear from football hooligans.

Zulu Elephant · May 20, 2003, 07:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
Used extreme propaganda
Used fear tactics to get people to vote as they wished
Prevented certain opposition groups from making thier vote

Yeah, but what the hell did the Nazis hold a referendum on?

Dauphin · May 20, 2003, 08:10

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger
I can't believe people saying that we shouldn't have a referendum as people are too stupid to decide such complex issues. Why bother having elections after all.

There is a difference between stupid and uninformed.

I would be happy enough with a referendum, I just don't think the results would be a vote on our best interests, but on our collective feelings towards Europe. I don't think the alternative, a free vote by politicians, is much better but I think it would at least be more geared towards our better interests.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 08:11

Like... if they had a referendum on bringing back hanging it'd get back in.

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 08:17

Yes, because that's what democracy is about!
The people should have a say, I think Hanging would be a good idea for repeating sex offenders and such (or Capital punishment should i say, Hanging is a somewhat old fashioned method).

Image edited by Ming... Just because using an IMG tag can allows you to get past the censor and use four letter words THAT THE OWNERS DON'T WANT YOU TO USE, doesn't make it ok to do so.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 08:21

If you let everyone vote on every issue like a true democracy the country would be in terrible trouble. That's why we have a parlimentary system instead. You have people whos job it is to understand all the issues pertaining to running the country.

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 08:23

The problem is when a group of people are voted into power to make such decisions but then go against what they promised pre-election (eg Student Grants!) and start acting like a dictatorship.
There needs to be a system where the people have to vote on Major issues, or where thier vote carries a significant weighting...

TheStinger · May 20, 2003, 08:29

I think referndums should be only used when the way in which the country is governed is to be changed. So introducing reginal assemblies should have referndums, going to war should not.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 08:29

One of the problems with referendums is the way the questions are phrased. You'd just put the power into the hands of the people who decide what are major issues and decide what questions to ask.

eg.

Do you want us to spend more money on schools?

or

Do you want us to take more money out of your pay each month?

or

Do you want us to take more money out of your pay each month to spend on schools?

Obviously it can be a lot more subtle than that though. Plus it'd cost a fortune educating everyone about the issues they had to vote on.

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 08:35

Very True, so perhaps Stinger has the solution. For decisions affecting the gotv itself and how it runs the country we have a referendum.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 08:40

Which is basically the current system.

TheStinger · May 20, 2003, 08:43

The current sytem is we'll have a referendum if we can win it.If Blair and Brown thought they could win a euro vote we would ahe the reerndum tomorrow

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 08:43

So Everyone needs to take advantage of this on June 12th and Save our Country!

Dauphin · May 20, 2003, 08:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
Save our Country!

From what?

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 08:54

Bieng taken over by Euro's, it will be a political disaster, how much central control do you really think the UK will get? The German/French/Belgian alliance will end up in Control of the rest of the countries. We share very little in common with Europeans and cannot be run by the same body.

Paul Hanson · May 20, 2003, 08:59

We share far more in common with "Euros" that most people in this country would like to believe. Once you get past the language barrier the British are far closer in cultural terms to the Germans and the Dutch, for instance, than to the Americans.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 09:00

Speak for yourself I share a lot in common with Europeans. I'll be voting for the Euro. I'd rather be part of a strong Europe than persist in being a second rate former power with delusions of world importance.

TheStinger · May 20, 2003, 09:01

Well as US culture is a hybrid of all of europes cultures I would say we have alot in common with all ot them

Solly · May 20, 2003, 09:03

"Speak for yourself I share a lot in common with Europeans. I'll be voting for the Euro"

Explain your economic rationale behind that. Sharing a lot in common with a country isn't a reason for sharing currencies as well.

Canada copes quite (actually, very) well without needing to have the currency of its hugely significant neighbour. Canada is smaller than UK, and the US is bigger than the Euroland.

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 09:06

Rubbish, we share a lot in common with America and virtually nothing with Europe (apart from Germany).

Barring Germany, Europe lives at a different pace of life to us in the UK, things are much more left wing in many countries, people in Europe dont live by the clock as much as we do either.

Solly · May 20, 2003, 09:08

The UK's sensitivity to interest rates is far higher in the UK, Mike. How do you propose to remedy that in only a couple of years?

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 09:10

Yes, but I'm quite left wing so I find most American domestic policy terrifying and European domestic policies quite sensible.

More relaxed pace of life, more left wing. Sounds great!

Economically I think that more and more international trading will start to be done in Euros and it's going to damage our exporters if we aren't part of it. Plus we currently have the largest stock market/financial center in Europe. It's already a worry that as the Euro gets stronger they'll start moving to Germany or wherever then we'd lose a major source of income for the country.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 09:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Boddington's The UK's sensitivity to interest rates is far higher in the UK, Mike. How do you propose to remedy that in only a couple of years?

Well you say that's a problem but what about the counter to that, you can argue that the increased interest rate sensitivity of the UK might mean that joining EMU would curb consumers appetite for debt. Which would help inflation, especially in housing. It would probably also mean a rapid switch to more European fixed rate loans and move the UK more towards Europe in terms of interest rate sensitivity. Which means you could argue that joining the Euro would help bring about stability to the UK economy. So you don't really need to deal with it because it'll sort itself out as people adjust to the new market they find themselves in.

Solly · May 20, 2003, 09:23

No, I'm sorry, that isn't a good argument. We can't join and then wait for convergence.

MikeH · May 20, 2003, 09:26

Why not? It'd certainly speed things up.

Joining's always going to hurt in the short term, it's policy that will show benefits in the long term.

Solly · May 20, 2003, 09:58

"Why not? It'd certainly speed things up.

Joining's always going to hurt in the short term, it's policy that will show benefits in the long term."

So, let's see. The public get persuaded, cajoled, pushed by Blair into the single currency. The referendum to join wins, but exceptionally narrowly.

Interest rate power is given over to the ECB.

Over the next five or six years, it is shown that sometimes the interest rate is too low for Britain, sometimes too high. Given our increased sensitivity to interest rates than other Eurozone members, our economy begins to fluctuate. Wildly.

What will people think?

a) This Euro thing is a great idea, we just need to give it time! I'll go and change my mortgage right away.

b) Which bastards pushed us into this thing? Vote them out! Tories declare they would restore the pound.

Which of these are most likely? Granted both are to the extreme but I think you'd agree that the result is likely to be nearer b than a.

If we wait until the time is right (ie, true convergence has been achieved - not necessarily as described in Brown's plans), it will stop the economy becoming destabilised, and will lead to a more successful period in the Euro.

I'm sure you're prepared to wait ten years if it means the risks of rescinding membership and harming the economy are marginalised.

My view is one that I rarely hear. I am, in principle, neutral to the Euro.

Solly · May 20, 2003, 10:01

I don't often put effort into posts any more, but I hope I've won you round.

Anwyay, going to revise for exam on trade and associated bollocks nows!