Blair Determined not to give British People a say on new EU Constitution - Page 4

The Mad Monk · May 21, 2003, 01:09

I know I didn't.

Solly · May 21, 2003, 07:25

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeH
True about the Conservatives. They really know how to throw an election in style don't they.

Their whole "we'll scrap tuition fees" is just awful - not credible at all, and reactionary.

PMKeates · May 21, 2003, 07:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Boddington's
Their whole "we'll scrap tuition fees" is just awful - not credible at all, and reactionary.

It may be reactionary, but it's what a lot of people want.

Solly · May 21, 2003, 07:53

Exactly, reactionary.

A more sensible policy would be to suggest more generous student loans, to be repaid as the current ones are now. This would not create budgetary problem, would allow equal access to university, and be in line with people's perceptions of what a Tory party could offer.

It's fair and well offering something people want, but if people perceive that they are being offered that not out of a conviction that it is a right and sensible policy, but merely a way of grab votes, they are not likely be swayed.

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:06

The Conservative Party believes in opportunity. Tuition fees restrict that. It's all very well talking about huge loans when you're from a middle-class family where Daddy pays for everything anyway...

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:07

Stewart, how do you feel about the excessive bureaucracy of City of Salford Council? Surely that could be tiered down considerably...

Solly · May 21, 2003, 08:09

Quote:

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
The Conservative Party believes in opportunity. Tuition fees restrict that. It's all very well talking about huge loans when you're from a middle-class family where Daddy pays for everything anyway...

Tuition fees do not restrict opportunity if student loans are generous enough to cover them and an acceptable standard of living.

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:12

They restrict opportunity if you are from a debt-averse background.

Besides, why should people pay for their qualifications twice?

Solly · May 21, 2003, 08:14

"They restrict opportunity if you are from a debt-averse background."

If someone can't see that the returns on their investment in their own education are huge, then they do not have the merit to go to university in the first place.

"Besides, why should people pay for their qualifications twice?"

Huh?

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:16

On average, graduates earn more money. Therefore, they pay a lot more tax. Tax is used, amongst other things, to pay for education. It's quite simple really.

Are you in favour of charging people to take A-levels? You could use a similar argument...

Solly · May 21, 2003, 08:20

Quote:

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
On average, graduates earn more money. Therefore, they pay a lot more tax. Tax is used, amongst other things, to pay for education. It's quite simple really.

And once students start to pay the full cost for their degree, they will not be paying tax towards the education they invested in, as it will no longer need to be subsidised by the taxpayer.

Quote:

Are you in favour of charging people to take A-levels? You could use a similar argument...

Yes, you could. But 16 year olds are not old enough to be taking decisions about debt and their future. 18 year olds are.

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:22

Quote:

Yes, you could. But 16 year olds are not old enough to be taking decisions about debt and their future. 18 year olds are.

Yet you effectively have to make a decision about University at 16...

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:23

Quote:

And once students start to pay the full cost for their degree, they will not be paying tax towards the education they invested in, as it will no longer need to be subsidised by the taxpayer.

But they will still be paying the same tax...

Solly · May 21, 2003, 08:32

Maybe there could be a lesson about debt and finance in high school, in order to prepare potential university students for the tough financial decisions they will have to make.

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 08:33

Have you sent UWA your £10000 cheque yet? Put your money where your mouth is...

Solly · May 21, 2003, 08:36

Look for my response earlier in this thread.

If that's the only argument you can resort to, it looks pretty poor on your part.

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 09:16

http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html

reds4ever · May 21, 2003, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Have you sent UWA your £10000 cheque yet? Put your money where your mouth is...

Is n't this page 1 material?

The best part of a week and dozens of posts later youre back where you started, you'll make a good politician.

Worthingtons · May 21, 2003, 11:04

On The Student Funding i'm with EiF - You're not paying it for Twice tho, it's three times

Not only is it the extra Income tax we'll pay, and the Tuition Fees, but also the cost of not working for 3/4 years while we do our degree - years of lost income while we educate ourselves to eventually do better and therefore make the country more prosperous.

MikeH · May 21, 2003, 11:07

Except the actual cost of our education is a lot higher than the fees we pay.

*End Is Forever* · May 21, 2003, 11:09

However, it isn't higher than the extra tax we personally pay as a result of having a degree... and that's even before you consider the myriad of spinoffs from that extra productivity.

Dauphin · May 21, 2003, 12:42

Perhaps we should do away with fees and award every student a £1,000 grant at the end of each completed term for living expenses. Then when they leave university they pay student tax of 5-10% (variable on income) on their earnings until they pay off the debt amount of fees and any grants. If you want you can factor in the increase in the debt owed at the rate of inflation and lost interest, say 5% p.a.

Surely this makes sense if you want to marry up cost/benefit of education without deterring the poor from seeking education. Its vaguely what happens with student loans isn't it? (I don't actually know because I never needed one)

Solly · May 22, 2003, 07:50

Quote:

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
However, it isn't higher than the extra tax we personally pay as a result of having a degree... and that's even before you consider the myriad of spinoffs from that extra productivity.

The majority of the gains accrue to the individual who invests in education.

But true, the government gains too, so long as the education is successful. I'd thus be able to argue as a compromise that the government should contribute somewhat to the education, but less than half.

MikeH · May 22, 2003, 07:56

We only pay more tax because we earn more. You can't count that as a negative thing.

*End Is Forever* · May 22, 2003, 20:02

From the Times today (er, yesterday)...

Quote:

HUGE overdrafts and loans can seem so daunting that increasing numbers of students say they are a price not worth paying for a degree.

Money problems and fear of debt are the main reasons why young people from disadvantaged families are likely to opt out of higher education or to drop out of university before graduating, says the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.

Professor Andy Furlong and his colleague Dr Alasdair Forsyth, both from the department of sociology and anthropology at the University of Glasgow, who conducted the research, say that their results depict a disturbing trend.

(my bold)

"Debt Takes Toll", The Times, 22/05/03

Solly · May 23, 2003, 08:24

Quote:

HUGE overdrafts and loans can seem so daunting that increasing numbers of students say they are a price not worth paying for a degree.

Well it boils down to the economics of investment then doesn't it.

If potential students don't think the potential benefits are greater than the opportunity cost and accrued debt, they are quite rational in not wishing to attend university.

There is an argument that university works only as a screen anyway...

Solly · May 23, 2003, 08:28

Iain, I think we are both arguing for the same end result - that parental incomes should have no bearing on opportunity to attend university.

Bereta_Eder · May 23, 2003, 08:29

brits are funny

blah, blah, blah then you do what you're told.