The U.S. is in a road which can ONLY end in eventual despotism...... - Page 2

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:38

Fez: You are looking at it in a one-dimensional context. It is more than that. You could place me at far left, far right, centre, centre left, whatever, I dont care for labels. Its the concept that matters. BTW, if you are going to judge my position based on my previos posts, or skim reading a first draft of an article produced under the influence of many chemicals, then accept that your interpretation is most likely flawed. Perhaps ask me for my own definition?

Giancarlo · May 20, 2003, 16:40

My interpretion isn't flawed. It is called an opinion.

You have an opinion. Now I would appreciate if you kept it away from others and myself.

Vesayen · May 20, 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
Show me an American who doesnt love liberty? Once the cloak of the flag that the government is using to justify everything now, is removed, people will surely see things in their true light.

I said nin the future..... not now.

It couldnt happen now....

Do you know who the next leaders of America will be?

Im graduation from highschool in a few weeks-I can tell you on good ground that the next generation is more clueless and self-indulgant then the last..... this will continue.

oedo · May 20, 2003, 16:40

actually only Fez preaches liberty:
I prefer a police state than being dead.

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:41

"You don't preach liberty"

Dont tell me what I dont preach! And dont compare me to Che Guivara, I respect the man to an extent but I dont agree with him. If you can tell someone who wrote an article advocating the theoretical maximum for liberty, that he doesnt preach liberty, then you, my friend, need to listen!

loinburger · May 20, 2003, 16:42

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. These worrying trends, if left unchecked for only a few hundred years, will undoubtedly result in despotism. I live in fear of its arrival.

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:43

"I would appreciate if you kept it away from others and myself"

Why?

" I said nin the future..... not now"

Best get off the road early

"Im graduation from highschool in a few weeks-I can tell you on good ground that the next generation is more clueless and self-indulgant then the last..... this will continue"

Congrats on graduating. Congrats on being able to see stuff most people cant. Do you intend to try to rectify the situation?

Giancarlo · May 20, 2003, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
Dont tell me what I dont preach! And dont compare me to Che Guivara, I respect the man to an extent but I dont agree with him. If you can tell someone who wrote an article advocating the theoretical maximum for liberty, that he doesnt preach liberty, then you, my friend, need to listen!

Keep to yourself. Stay out of my life and you won't get any heat from me. I don't want you running some dumb revolution, because it will end up as a failure.

You don't advocate liberty, you advocate BS.

Imran Siddiqui · May 20, 2003, 16:45

Quote:

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. These worrying trends, if left unchecked for only a few hundred years, will undoubtedly result in despotism. I live in fear of its arrival.

--

Yes, of course we'll end in despotism, so just stop your whining and just put me in charge now. Therefore we won't have to go through those deaths and stuff during the revolution.

Shi Huangdi · May 20, 2003, 16:46

The USA Patriot Act, like it or not, does not interfere with voting or the constitutional process. If terrorism increases, we could well move towards an Israel type system of very heavy internal security, but so far nothing has happened that has undermine the Constitutional Process for the election of leaders.

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:48

"I don't want you running some dumb revolution, because it will end up as a failure"

Do you honestly think I'm some kinda revolutionary communist?

"Keep to yourself. Stay out of my life and you won't get any heat from me"

I assume you live in a free country where you are free to read what you wish? I live in a (relatively) free country where I have freedom of speech. I intend to use it. You have a problem with that? Talk to Tony Blair.

Giancarlo · May 20, 2003, 16:49

Elijah: Yes I do live in a free country... well relatively free... Argentina. I don't trust the media though as it is all corrupt like the politics. But I am moving to the US.

I am not trying to silence you. I am saying don't shove it down others throats as you have been doing. That will get you in a whole lot of trouble. We see that happen with Christian fundamentalists who go on a crusade to convert people.

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:50

"he USA Patriot Act, like it or not, does not interfere with voting or the constitutional process"

Agreed, and that is good. The constitution as it is is quite impressive. It does interfere with the right to privacy, and the notion of tyranny by majority (or minority depends on interpretation... i say majority... its cosmetic who cares

). I think its a step in the wrong direction and I think that many or most Americans are smart enough to see that.

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:53

"don't shove it down others throats as you have been doing. That will get you in a whole lot of trouble"

Im not shoving it down throats, I'm merely posting my opinions as many people do here. I have neither the power, inclination or time to force opinions on people. If people have a problem with my opinions, they can question, critique them, or ignore me. Many do. Some disagree, some agree (in general) and that is good. I trust you do, and that is fine, question them, critique them, disagree with me, for that is healthy for all imo. Lets not go into ad hominems.

If its because I'm British, I advocate handing the Falklands over!

jk

Giancarlo · May 20, 2003, 16:55

Okay I disagree with you entirely and will ignore you. I don't have the time either.. I got to get ready for a presentation tomorrow.

I am not Argentine. Rather I am Spanish. So I want Gibraltar back.

Japher · May 20, 2003, 16:55

Quote:

Lets not go into ad hominems.

But that's what Fez's do best

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 16:57

Thats your perogative, so fair enough!

The Falklands, take it or leave it! Gibraltars mine goddamit!!! jk

Ned · May 20, 2003, 16:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesayen

I thought this was just me, I never thought that this was a mass phenomina-but it DOES make sense, and describes me EXACTLY......

I dont know who im voting for in the next election.... wont be democrat or republican, thats for sure.

Vesayan, Once upon a time, the Democrats had Roosevelt and Kennedy, two president who stood strongly for America and strongly for American ideals. The modern Democrat party was built on these two presidencies. But the Democrat party has lost its pro-American idealism and as a result it is increasing losing its base of Roosevelt and Kennedy Democrats.

It would be great if any of the Democrat candidtates were stongly pro-American. But none of them are save for perhaps Lieberman. But, Lieberman will not get the nomination as the party that nominates has moved too far left for him to be their candidate.

Oerdin · May 20, 2003, 16:59

I'm thinking about setting myself up as despot of America. How shall I go about achieving this goal since it is inevitable?

Worthingtons · May 20, 2003, 16:59

I'm with slow, this Ves guy is losing the plot, and perhaps should go into something like fortune telling, cos they talk crap too.

Anyway, I woudnt be sure the demo's will find a strong opponent next election, there was only one Bill Clinton. You guys should have 3 parties.

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 17:02

Seeing as how I am on the topic of spain, here is my view on the problems in America right now.

Susurre las palabras de la sabiduría, déjelas ser

Someone tell me if thats right? I dont have the heart to plaigerise the Beatles but my spanish is way too rusty.

Whatever will be will be, all I and others can do is say our pieces and campaign, leave the rest to history.

Oerdin · May 20, 2003, 17:03

I'm thinking five parties would be nice one for the far left, far right, moderate left, moderate right, and then the centrists. Of course this would totally screw up the way Congress works as we probably wouldn't have a majority and minority leadership to push everyone else into towing the party line.

Still it would be better then the current set up.

GePap · May 20, 2003, 17:13

The most worrying trend is not the Patriot act, which, by the way, will most likely become permanent, sincve a war on terrorism is never ending, unless some sort of cumbaja moment comes. The worsdt trend is the continuing shift in power form the legaslative branch to the executive branch of government. The president is an important post, but the Congress was meant to be king. The conrgess pays the bills, raiases the army, and in theory, should also b the one that decides on war or peace. The President is the crisis manager. but long term policy is the job of the Congress, or should be. Sicne WW1 the presidents have been gaining more and more power, and certainly more prestige, than congress. That is the most dangerous general trend in governance of the last century.

At one point, when the Cold war ended, suposedly we were out of the crises of the short 20th century (1914-1991), the whole NWO (Bush 1'st terminology) had begun..but npow we have a whole new set of "criseses", and the time of the Imperial precidency (not a good term) continues on, seemingly without end.

Agathon · May 20, 2003, 17:15

I don't see why anyone thinks this is controversial. Democracy in the US has been suffering a downward trend at least since the early seventies. It looks like going back to the bad old days of policy for who can afford it and "good government" for everyone else.

What else is supposed to happen when the wealthy can basically subvert the system at will? Other countries have publicly financed elections and strict controls on donations to prevent this from happening. The result is a more flexible and responsive government and a higher voter turnout.

The Democrats are basically a joke; no more than Republicans in sheep's clothing. And the influence of Straussians in the current administration just shows how corrupt and meaningless the whole thing has become. I've always wondered what Lincoln would say if he could see the current situation; my bet is that he'd break down and cry.

A complete overhaul of the electoral system is required as well as public funding for elections and a proper public health system and an increased role for public broadcasting. Until that happens Americans are doomed to live in a society with increasing violence and ignorance. What's frightening is that this is unlikely to happen without violence in a society which has shown little restraint about turning guns on its own citizens.

Agathon · May 20, 2003, 17:17

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
The worsdt trend is the continuing shift in power form the legaslative branch to the executive branch of government.

I've always marvelled that a country which was founded on the denial of royal authority should create their own disposable consumer-friendly "ruler" whom they treat just like a king (he has his own palace and music, etc.).

Whaleboy · May 20, 2003, 17:26

Agathon, have I ever mentioned that you rock! Wanna swap brains? Or at least posts?

Consider a society that is struggling to reconcile its past with its future (look at the guns thing). Would it be fair to say that America is a society whose greatest fear is that it will be a flash in the pan, and not a true civilisation? I fear that these orwellian measures will make the nightmare a reality.

Arrian · May 20, 2003, 17:34

Quote:

I've always marvelled that a country which was founded on the denial of royal authority should create their own disposable consumer-friendly "ruler" whom they treat just like a king (he has his own palace and music, etc.).

Ned · May 20, 2003, 17:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
I'm with slow, this Ves guy is losing the plot, and perhaps should go into something like fortune telling, cos they talk crap too.

Anyway, I woudnt be sure the demo's will find a strong opponent next election, there was only one Bill Clinton. You guys should have 3 parties.

Rothy, we kinda do have three parties. We have had strong independent candidates since the '68 election, when Wallace ran. A lot of the disaffected Democrats have voted for these third party candidates rather than voting Republican.

Oerdin · May 20, 2003, 17:39

Quote:

Originally posted by elijah
Seeing as how I am on the topic of spain, here is my view on the problems in America right now.

Susurre las palabras de la sabiduría, déjelas ser

Someone tell me if thats right? I dont have the heart to plaigerise the Beatles but my spanish is way too rusty.

Whatever will be will be, all I and others can do is say our pieces and campaign, leave the rest to history.

I don't remember any Beattles quotes that talk about whispering. Are you sure you aren't trying to say "Que sera, sera"?

BTW Ming gets upset when people don't speak in English.

Ned · May 20, 2003, 17:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon
I don't see why anyone thinks this is controversial. Democracy in the US has been suffering a downward trend at least since the early seventies. It looks like going back to the bad old days of policy for who can afford it and "good government" for everyone else.

What else is supposed to happen when the wealthy can basically subvert the system at will? Other countries have publicly financed elections and strict controls on donations to prevent this from happening. The result is a more flexible and responsive government and a higher voter turnout.

The Democrats are basically a joke; no more than Republicans in sheep's clothing. And the influence of Straussians in the current administration just shows how corrupt and meaningless the whole thing has become. I've always wondered what Lincoln would say if he could see the current situation; my bet is that he'd break down and cry.

A complete overhaul of the electoral system is required as well as public funding for elections and a proper public health system and an increased role for public broadcasting. Until that happens Americans are doomed to live in a society with increasing violence and ignorance. What's frightening is that this is unlikely to happen without violence in a society which has shown little restraint about turning guns on its own citizens.

Ag, I personally have not seen a shift in power to the Executive. The most powerful president in the last century was Roosevelt, who tried to pack the Supreme Court. As proof, I contrast Bill Clinton and George Bush II. Clinton did not consult Congress before declaring war on Yugoslavia. Bush did consult Congress before declaring war on Iraq. The difference points to a shift in power back to Congress.