The U.S. is in a road which can ONLY end in eventual despotism......

[Agathon]

Originally posted by elijah
Agathon, have I ever mentioned that you rock! Wanna swap brains? Or at least posts?

Thanks. I don't know if you'd want all my opinions though; they seem to offend some people deeply.

Consider a society that is struggling to reconcile its past with its future (look at the guns thing). Would it be fair to say that America is a society whose greatest fear is that it will be a flash in the pan, and not a true civilisation?

I think you are right. This seems to me to be a powerful theme in the psychology of the US.

[Whaleboy]

"I don't remember any Beattles quotes that talk about whispering.

Whisper words of wisdom, let it be

"Are you sure you aren't trying to say "Que sera, sera"?"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

"BTW Ming gets upset when people don't speak in English."

Sorry.... Didnt know that, wont happen again!

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Ned

Ag, I personally have not seen a shift in power to the Executive. The most powerful president in the last century was Roosevelt, who tried to pack the Supreme Court. As proof, I contrast Bill Clinton and George Bush II. Clinton did not consult Congress before declaring war on Yugoslavia. Bush did consult Congress before declaring war on Iraq. The difference points to a shift in power back to Congress.

I think I can say that I've seen a shift in power away from the ordinary citizen to the interests of wealth. Does it really matter who makes the decision when the range of possible decisions is narrowed to reflect small differences of opinion among the elites?

Ralph Nader said a few years back that the current Democrats made Nixon look like a Liberal; the funny thing is that he's right. Look back to the early seventies and the think tank revolution (begun to quell the influence of the intellectually free university system which tended to the liberal left). Jesus, Bush and Clinton make Eisenhower look like an enlightened man.

[Whaleboy]

If anyone or anything can make Tricky Dicky look like a liberal, then we my friends, have a problem. I have to agree that it is losing its representation of the people. Guess thats what happens when you have corporate-friendly and ex-corporate senators. Practicalyl half of bushes government are oilmen! Its not good, a goverment is supposed to be (reasonably) objective!

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Vesayen
*sigh*


It WONT be bloody but it WILL happen eventually-my prayer is that it dosent happen in my lifetime-but proboably in my childrens(if I ever have any).

The average American is caring less and less about politics and world events as times goes on, and voter turnout continues to drop...

In a system, where the people are completley uncaring, what is to prevent a charasmatic leader from simply taking power that he shouldnt have gradually-when there is little to no resistance against him?

I dont see how events can play out any other way.......Im afraid the next world changing evil despot(Hitler size) will be the leader of an America populated by people even more apathetic and uncaring than today.

Think of Watergate. Nixon cheated the election system (spied on opponent, covered it up) so we booted him out. Then we booted Ford out for pardoning him.

Same thing will happen to anyone who tries to cheatily stay in office longer than we want. When we want to throw someone out, we throw them out dammit.

The other argument people make is that GWB's war on terrorism is letting him take more absolute power. However, after Roosevelt, did we become socialist? Nope. We elected a more moderate lefty, and then a Republican. We bounce back and forth. Once the detainee stuff pisses enough people off, we're gonna elect a "nicer to Islam" president.

GePap: I think what's happening right now is that the GOP gets together, and they come up with something they want to do. Then they decide Bush should announce it since he's the president and all. Then they pass it because some of them came up with the idea in the first place. But it looks like Bush is bossing them all around to outsiders. If the GOP loses the house and senate but GWB wins reelection, the legislative branch will appear to be stronger.

[GePap]

Neither Bush nor Clinto declared war on anybody. They simply attacked, with congressional consent (I wonder why Reps. were against the freedom of Albanians in 1999? Did they find freedom all of a sudden, somewhere?) Why does the president drive economic policy? Congress taxes, spends. They can come up with spending bills of thier own, yet it is always "the president's plan" people talk about..why? Why do reps. in congress leave it up to the executive to make the plans, why do they follow so?

FDR may hev been the president with the most power, but of course, he was also president at the zenith of the times of crises, and even then, Congress put up hell of a fight (FDR's defeat with the court is oen example). No, over time, Congress becomes less and less (Why is turnout for mid-term elections so much lower than presidental ones, if congress was seen by the people as having so much power?

No, congress continues its decline at the expense of the executive.

[Ned]

Agathon, Barry Goldwater said almost the exact same thing when he ran for president: There's not a dime's worth of difference between the Republican and Democratic Parties.

Since both parties like to move to the center to win elections, I think you are complaining that the center has moved right. Here I agree with you. The rightward shift dramatically began with the rejection of McGovern and then of Carter, and with the election of Reagan. I think it continues because today, for the first time in nearly a century it seems, the Republicans control both houses of Congress and the presidency. This means the Democrats have not moved far enough to the right to capture the center and the American people's votes.

As of this writing, I see nothing that will not continue to trend to an increasing Republican majority. The Democrats seem increasingly to be far left liberals, way out of step with the average American, particularly on issues of national security.

I am also amazed that none of the Democrats seem to be in favor getting the American economy going again. They consistently oppose tax cuts, citing worries about an increased deficit. If one thinks about this for a moment, the Democrat position is almost ludicrous.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
Neither Bush nor Clinto declared war on anybody. They simply attacked, with congressional consent (I wonder why Reps. were against the freedom of Albanians in 1999? Did they find freedom all of a sudden, somewhere?)

GePap, I believe the Republicans criticized Clinton for not consulting Congress, not because the majority of Republicans were against the Yugoslav war, but because they resented Clinton's arrogance.

[Sandman]

I'd say semi-despotism. Think Germany before the First World War.

[Whaleboy]

I think its more of a boom/bust thing. American liberty might be on a down turn at the moment, but I'm sure in the long run (very long), it'll pick up, and reflect the trend in all cultures to naturally evolve towards more liberty.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'd say semi-despotism. Think Germany before the First World War.

Now that's an odd comparison. Germany pre WWI had some authoritarian elements, but it also had strong recognition of the rule of law, of universal suffrage, of a federal system that respects states rights.

I think you are doing Germany grave injustice by that comparison.

[Whaleboy]

lmao!!

[Sandman]

I'm thinking in terms of the mystical nationalism, the constant attempts to upset the world order, the militarism, and the semi-democratic government system.

Although since I forgot the enlightened policy towards science and the decent level of social provision, you probably have a point.

[Sprayber]

Jesus H Christ. If I had a dime for every time the sky fell after some teenager spent too much time watching the news instead of going out town and trying to get laid, I'd be sitting up in some high class pad with a lady on my arm (blonde or brunette depending on what day of the week it is)

I'll second my man Slowws assesment. Go out town, get drunk and quit worring about all this nonsense.

*What are we doing tonight Brain. Same thing we do every night Pinky, try to take over the world*

[Cyclotron]

Holy sh*t, you guys must have really broken out the Jack Daniel's last night. I fail to see a single reason to indicate that the USA is turning into a despotic government. Unless despotic now means "a government that I disagree with..."

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Ned


Vesayan, Once upon a time, the Democrats had Roosevelt and Kennedy, two president who stood strongly for America and strongly for American ideals. The modern Democrat party was built on these two presidencies. But the Democrat party has lost its pro-American idealism and as a result it is increasing losing its base of Roosevelt and Kennedy Democrats.

It would be great if any of the Democrat candidtates were stongly pro-American. But none of them are save for perhaps Lieberman. But, Lieberman will not get the nomination as the party that nominates has moved too far left for him to be their candidate.

I would of voted for Lieberman-but I doubt he'll be the democratic canidate.

[Al B. Sure!]

Ned:

Amazingly, democrats still get votes... the majority of americans are registered democrats even though polls show that most of these registered democrats are too socially conservative to really be democrats.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Ned:

Amazingly, democrats still get votes... the majority of americans are registered democrats even though polls show that most of these registered democrats are too socially conservative to really be democrats.

Albert, I think the Repblicans will continue to expand their base to be more inclusive and will increasingly attract registered votes as the "stigma" of being a Republican becomes passe. Bush's compassionate conservatism is highly attactive as a political philoosphy.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Agathon
Ralph Nader said a few years back that the current Democrats made Nixon look like a Liberal; the funny thing is that he's right. Look back to the early seventies and the think tank revolution (begun to quell the influence of the intellectually free university system which tended to the liberal left). Jesus, Bush and Clinton make Eisenhower look like an enlightened man.

Ag: That's because many of the Democrates in the 70's weren't just socialists but down right communists. With both of those ideologies proven to be sure fire economic losers the far left has either had to get off of the political bus or track back to the center.

Personally, I think it is a good thing that the market place of ideas has removed the losers.

[Nubclear]

In other news, the patriot act 2 gives the government the power to strip an AMERICAN CITIZEN of their citizenship if they are classifed as being part of a terrorist organization. Of course, the definition of a "terrorist organization" is up for the department of homeland secuirty to decide

Also in other news, the Patriot Act (1) gives the government the right to track EVERY MOVE of your life thorugh the "Total Information Awareness" program.

In other news, Indian newspapers have been reporting for quite some time that after Sep11, several Indians were arrested by the government....not charged with anything, and deported back to India where they have several teeth missing, scars they didn't have before, and psychological trauma and show symptoms of major Post-Tramatic Stress Disorder.

In other news, several government organizations, contrary to the Republican stance of "get the government outta the people!!!" ( ) are now part of the Department of Homeland Secuirty effectively putting it under the control of one man.

Also in other news, airports are stopping certain passengers from boarding planes because theyve been blacklisted. Oddly enough, all the passengers denied are democrats

In other news, a man living somewhere was recently sentenced to several months in jail for making a "Burning Bush" comment. He and his collegues deny that he was referring to president Bush, but that didn't stop a baker (!!!) from telling the juge that they were lying

I'm DEFINATELY seeing despotic tendencies in the government nowdays. They are eerily resembling tendencies of my homeland.....

[oedo]

I don´t know whether American people are allowed to read Michael Moore´s Stupid White Men . the way he describes how the Bushies stole the last White House election by just preventing suspected (and partly even innocent) people from voting in Florida, gave me a short overview how America is turning away from democracy. I got really angry when I read this chapter. and I don´t see a reason why Micheal Moore should have lied. a lot of dangerous BS seems to go on in the USA.
I don´t know what the US elite is trying to invent instead: a despotism, a dictatorship, an oligarshy, whatever. at least one should be worried about what the current administration is planning and one should really pay more attention on it.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by oedo
I don´t know whether American people are allowed to read Michael Moore´s Stupid White Men .

From that silly question, I can infer you don't know much about America. Let me proceed to shed some light on the subject.

First off, I don't know where you got the idea that what we read is subject to censorship... I mean, that's just outta left field, man.

the way he describes how the Bushies stole the last White House election by just preventing suspected (and partly even innocent) people from voting in Florida, gave me a short overview how America is turning away from democracy. I got really angry when I read this chapter.

To be honest, I don't like Bush one bit, but he did win the election. Trust an American on this one: the damn election was on TV news for at least 100 hours straight, if not more.

and I don´t see a reason why Micheal Moore should have lied.

Yes, why would Michael Moore lie to us?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jesus H Christ. If I had a dime for every time the sky fell after some teenager spent too much time watching the news instead of going out town and trying to get laid, I'd be sitting up in some high class pad with a lady on my arm (blonde or brunette depending on what day of the week it is)

Yes, why would Michael Moore lie to us?

He's only the Rush Limbaugh of the left. Though I love how a socialist is using capitalist publishing to make money .

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
He's only the Rush Limbaugh of the left. Though I love how a socialist is using capitalist publishing to make money .

Ah yes, because we know all them lefties are just commies at heart...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well Moore basically is .

[Jaguar]

Beware the fat man!!!!!!

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Sandman
I'm thinking in terms of the mystical nationalism, the constant attempts to upset the world order, the militarism, and the semi-democratic government system.

Although since I forgot the enlightened policy towards science and the decent level of social provision, you probably have a point.

Exactly.

Sprayber: "Jesus H Christ. If I had a dime for every time the sky fell"

I don't expect the US to be turned into a nazi style regime where the Führer appears on TV wearing uniform... oh wait a moment ... and the Blockwarts and Gestapo run the show... although Ashcroft seems to like the idea...

No, the real problem is the increasing nationalism and militarism, coupled with an ever more authoritarion view of government, while corruption and cronyism runs rampant. As Sandman said, you can have a semi-authoritarian regime while formally keeping the constitution in place, and that's the way it is heading.

[Q Classic]

you know what? it won't matter in the end even if the us turns into a police state.

why? because odds are that america won't last a thousand years. in a thousand years, america will probably be a chapter in some history text, a nation spoken of in reverent or despised tones, much like rome.

[DinoDoc]

Too much BS.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by Ned


Albert, I think the Repblicans will continue to expand their base to be more inclusive and will increasingly attract registered votes as the "stigma" of being a Republican becomes passe. Bush's compassionate conservatism is highly attactive as a political philoosphy.

compassionate conservatism is also an out and out lie. theres nothing compasionate about being convservative.