Civ-Specific Strategy: French

[Mountain Sage]

This thread is the logical sequel of Dominae’s ‘Civ-Specific Strategy: Americans’
Why not have threads for each Civ with comments, strategies, tips etc.?

Therefore, here we go for the second one:


1. French civ-traits

A. Commercial:

This trait is often overlooked, because it is insidious. You don’t see the benefits immediately, meaning in the Ancient Times, but they accrue turn after turn for the rest of the game. In fact, the commercial trait really kicks in by the mid-Middle Age.

What is the usefulness of the commercial trait? Well, it lowers corruption and boosts commerce, which in turn gives you a more productive and balanced empire.

Corruption: this is a true civ-killer. Not for the first few core cities, of course, but the bigger your empire expands, the more its effects will hurt you. In fact, it’s like dogs, cats and fleas. Every settler will bring it along with him.
But how much is corruption reduced? I don’t have any statistics, but let’s assume its only 1 gold/city/turn (the IA cannot make it ½ gold, ¼ gold etc.). Now, 1 gold saved/turn x 300 turns (the total maximum turn of the game is 540) = 300 gold saved per city.

Extra commerce: You get 1 extra gold for cities up to size 12 and 2 extra gold for cities size 12+. Now, 1 x 200 turns -about 250AD- = 200 gold. Add another 50 turns at size 12+ = 100 gold.

Total commercial trait: 600 gold PER CITY over 300 turns – about 1700AD. Now you can really plan your empire of 30+ cities…

Finally, the optimal number of cities on a set map is increased by 25% instead of 12,5% (dixit Soren). The only drawback I can see is that on small (and sometimes standard) maps it will be more difficult to build the FP.

Of course, the bigger the map, the more effective this trait is (more cities = less corruption = more production + more gold).


B. Industrious:

This trait has two advantages.
Extra shields: each city from size 7+ produces 1 more shield. If not a big difference for the core cities, this is still helpful for fringe-cities. Add a courthouse and they’ll look less hopeless.

Double-speed worker ability: by far its most important advantage.
First of all, you get 1 free worker on turn 1; it can immediately start a road, irrigate or mine. Then, 1 worker costs 10 shields and 1 pop point, plus 1 gold/turn for the upkeep. Therefore, for the same amount of work, you can build only 50% of the needed workers. For instance, on a 20-city empire with 10 workers, the difference is +10 gold/turn AND 2 size 5 cities (now, 10 gold x 300 turns = …), and of course the saved shields spent on something else (the saddle of a Horseman, for instance).

But this is not everything: double-speeded irrigation and mines improves your food and shield output. On average, it will take your worker about 22-24 turns to irrigate 2 tiles, mine 2 others and build a road on all of them. So, after 24 turns, your city can happily grow to size 6 and your worker can start on the next one.

But the most important feature is certainly double-speed road building. In the early game, time is your enemy, and an early road network gives you faster
- access to resources and luxuries, including denial to other civs,
- settler movement, therefore better city placement,
- military movement (Horsemen at 6 tiles/turn!),
- road networks linkage, i.e. trade opportunities.

Finally, you are cursed with jungle? In 12 turns, your patch is ready for irrigation.


2. The tech race

A. Industrious:
The starting tech is Masonry. Add a pinch of water to it and … instant Pyramids! (well, almost, just add a few turns and some shields). A free granary in each city, besides the effect as a ‘normal’ granary, makes you save 1 gold/turn/city. Again, 20 cities x 1 gold x 200 turns…

B. Commercial:
The starting tech is Alphabet. Get writing after 40 turns (and Pottery with a goodie-hut!) and you have two possibilities, either go for Literature and the Great Library, or go for Map Making and the Great Lighthouse.

Put the two traits together and via Mathematics, Philosophy and Code of Laws go for the Republic. Since these techs are not the first researched by the AI, milk it dry.


3. Assorted Wonders

A. Industrious: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Great Wall, Hoover Dam, Manhattan Project, Internet.
B. Commercial: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan’s Great Voyage, Smith Trading Co., United Nations, Internet.

You have 5 Ancient Wonders, 2 Medieval ones, 2 Industrial and 2 Modern Times ones.


4. Golden Age

The main problem with 5 Ancient Wonders is that some of them are easily built (even on Monarch), which will trigger your GA. If it’s too soon, well, let another civ build them and get them later, if you cannot live without them.

On the other side, the French UU, the Musketeer, is available only in the mid-Middle Ages. In a tight race, a medieval GA, when most of the other civs have already spent theirs (under Despotism!), can pull you ahead of the game again.


5. UU

The Musketeer is by far not one of the best UU. But look at the bright side: it’s a strong defender and can trigger your GA in the Middle-Ages. Just compare it with Carthage’s, (which is also commercial/industrious): Carthage’s GA is triggered in the Ancient Times, which, IM(H)O, is not the best thing if you are at war, since you want your GA for rexing and building improvements, not military units.


Conclusion:

Playing the French gives you a more productive empire than most other civs. Less corruption, more shields, more gold. This is especially true if you gave big one (through conquest or on huge maps).
The extra gold is specially a real boon: I usually finish my games with at least 10’000 ‘useless’ gold (sometimes I get 25’000+), having build everything possible (and some rather stupid on top of that). Marketplaces, banks, stock exchange and Smith Trading Co. means that you can buy cash all your factories, for instance, or maintain a huge military and still build everything (building is easy, paying the upkeep is a different story).
Even the military is not that bad: a French Knight is still a Knight, after all.

So, give the French a chance, they will reward you well.


PS: it’s time for me to say adieu to the French for a while, other civs are looking interesting (a PP or PUP game with the Americans, hmmm…).

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Why not have threads for each Civ with comments, strategies, tips etc.?

Civ-Specific Strategy: Aztecs
Civ-Specific Strategy: Arabs
Civ-Specific Strategy: English
Civ-Specific Strategy: Babylonians

None of them were quite as good as the Americans' thread but if anyone wanted to post anything useful in them...

You get 1 extra gold for cities up to size 12 and 2 extra gold for cities size 12+.

No, that's 2 extra commerce at size 7-12 and 3 at 13+
It's better than you think. conversely:

each city from size 7+ produces 1 more shield.

Actually only at 13+

Finally, the optimal number of cities on a set map is increased by 25% instead of 12,5% (dixit Soren). The only drawback I can see is that on small (and sometimes standard) maps it will be more difficult to build the FP.

The quarter increase in the OCN is rounded down and is applied after the difficulty level. This can be important eg. on a standard map at Emperor, that's 3 cities out of 15.8 but on Deity, it's only 2 out of 13.2 making a big difference to the usefulness of the trait.

In Communism, it's only 10%.

It has no effect on how many cities are needed to build the FP.

Of course, the bigger the map, the more effective this trait is (more cities = less corruption = more production + more gold).

But on a smaller map with it's lower OCN, Commercial is more important earlier. For a warmonger Commercial can be useful before Scientific or Religious but this is more important on a smaller map.

Get writing after 40 turns (and Pottery with a goodie-hut!) and you have two possibilities, either go for Literature and the Great Library, or go for Map Making and the Great Lighthouse.

Put the two traits together and via Mathematics, Philosophy and Code of Laws go for the Republic. Since these techs are not the first researched by the AI, milk it dry.

The AI does go for Writing, Mapmaking, code of laws and philosophy reasonably fast. OTOH starting researching Mathematics first is a decent use of both your traits (proivided you've met other people of course, on your Archipelago Mapmaking is often going to be better).

Carthage’s GA is triggered in the Ancient Times, which, IM(H)O, is not the best thing if you are at war, since you want your GA for rexing and building improvements, not military units.

On the contrary if you're going to war on your own terms, there's no need to trigger your GA. The merc is often a decent deterrent anyway. If you are in trouble, a despotic GA building units is a good idea. I've often had a middle-aged GA with Carthage.

I know that France was your favorite civ pre-PTW but now, although still good, it is outclassed by Carthage.

[cumi]

I play with france very often. I was playing with germans before, but I had always problems with my neighbours. They thougth, I am an aggresive warmonger and they declared war to me very often without any reason. With the french I don't have this problem so often. I can build my empire peacfully....

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Why not have threads for each Civ with comments, strategies, tips etc.?

We tried that, but it tried to do too many at once and the later ones were not as...inspired. Other than the Americans one, I did an Aztecs one, which you can find here.

It would be really nice if we could get one of these out, say, per month, maybe more if there are interested writers. I've not read this one yet, but it looks good so far!


Dominae

[Aeson]

I like the Ind/Com combo on Deity especially. It allows you to go for Mathmatics right off, which is the only 'first tech' a player can get at 40 turns (almost) every time and still be the first one to get it. Then Currency is available, which is another good 40 turn tech option, especially if you can hold Mathmatics for a few turns.

With good trading sense, Alphabet, Masonry, Mathmatics, and Currency will allow the player to make it out of the Ancient Era as fast as the AI on Deity... peacefully, at minimum research, and without huts. I don't think any other combination can do that consistantly.

[vmxa1]

While agree with what you say, I do have one reservation. That is that I will not have contact with very many civs early in the game and therefore trading tech is not a big help.

[Kaos XIII]

Oui, France est très bien. Their especially good in a huge map and their UU comes at a perfect time to pull ahead. I agree with everyone that the early techs allow France to compete in the Ancient age at higher levels. The traits allow for the construction of a huge country with many cities.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Dominae

It would be really nice if we could get one of these out, say, per month, maybe more if there are interested writers.
Dominae

Yes, I'm sure many people would be interested.
One problem I see is that these civ-specific threads get 'swamped' by newer ones, and after a while it gets difficult finding them again.

I was wondering if it was sensible to create a new directory as Civilization III>Civ-3 Specific Civs.

We would have to switch from one forum to another, that's true, but we would get a 'permanency' for these threads.

If you take into account that in September/October we'll get a bunch of new civs...

Please think about it and let us know. You'll certainly have better contacts with the 'gods above' (moderators and such) to convince them if you think my idea makes sense.

[Master Zen]

I'm actually a big fan of the French, I found them to be very usefull in huge maps because of their commercial trait.

Never played them on Deity so I can't give an opinions on this regard, but on emperor I usually could get the Great Library and amass pretty large armies.

Now, the UU is VERY underrated. Sure, it's no Siphai, but I found Musketeers to be fairly good at beating off counterattacks and good at taking out med infs of swordsmen on flat terrain. Plus, their golden age comes at probably the best time in the game, when you can start building universities and wonders which can be game winners. I'm a big fan of mid-late medieval GA's, and the Musketteer fits right smack in that periord.

So, on SP I would definitely choose France over Carthage, in fact, I would choose France over any other civ besides Egypt in SP, ok, maybe tied with the Ottomans on standard maps and below.

In MP however, I would choose Carthage instead...

[bongo]

Mountain Sage, I don't think we need a directory for civ-specific strategies. A master thread with links to other threads will probably be good enough. Better make it a thread with that nice 'top'-tag next to them

Liked your analysis though

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by bongo
Mountain Sage, I don't think we need a directory for civ-specific strategies. A master thread with links to other threads will probably be good enough. Better make it a thread with that nice 'top'-tag next to them

Liked your analysis though

Fine for me, except that I just don't know how to do that. I might be 'the Master of the French' , but my computer skills are below those of a 10-years old kid...

[bongo]

I guess you have to be an admin to grant a thread 'top' status.

[dexters]

Keep in mind that the Carthiginians are also Commercial/ Industrious. They also have the Numidian Mercs as their UUs.

I haven't yet played the Civ, but it looks like a killer combination.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by dexters

I haven't yet played the Civ, but it looks like a killer combination.

It is, especially in MP

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by bongo
I guess you have to be an admin to grant a thread 'top' status.

or a mod... btw, who's the mod of the strat forum? that's a question i've been dying to ask for the last 4 months....

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by dexters
Keep in mind that the Carthiginians are also Commercial/ Industrious. They also have the Numidian Mercs as their UUs.

I haven't yet played the Civ, but it looks like a killer combination.

Yep, same as the French, but with an Ancient Times UU (GA!). Look at the PUP thread, several of us played the same game.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

France vs Carthage

Sorry to dredge up such an old thread, but I felt the need to make a comment about the whole France/Carthage debate, or rather, lack of debate.

It would seem that Carthage has France beat... the AI certainly tends to use Carthage well, as opposed to France - well by AI standards that is to say. The NM is, seemingly, an awe-inspiring unit. In MP, doubtless, Carthage rules the roost.

But does it in SP? Sure, Carthage can defend itself fine using that NM. But if Carthage is attacked early on - and any civ is bound to be attacked early on if your map is crowded enough - it's GA is triggered. That means despotic (re: wasted) GA. France does not suffer from this problem.

Furthermore, look at their neighbors (if you play with cultural linking on). Carthage is up against the Greeks and Romans often, NOT your ideal neighbors. France, on the other hand, is up against a bunch of other civs WITHOUT a strong ancient era hand to play. Sure, the expanionists might get a tech lead, but there's no Hoplites and Legions around to block a French invasion, like there might be to block the Carthaginians...

I view France and Carthage as basically tied... hopefully, when C3C comes out, the Carthaginians won't be industrious anymore, but we'll see...

[vmxa1]

I think one look at the current AU team game will suggest that Carth is not highly regarded in an SP game. Of all the close civs, it was the last one to be attacked. It UU is mostly responsible for that as it is better dealt with in the middle ages. As Japan was one of the neighbors, it is better dealt with before the middle ages and was first to go. Of course the lay of the land will have something to say about things as well. That is going to be more of an extereme thing though. If one was in a poor location or had something you needed and the like, that will alter the course.

[Dominae]

Whether or not you consider Carthage better than the French in SP depends a lot on how important Spearmen are in your playstyle.

It is not rare for me to go all the way until Replaceable Parts without building more than handful of defensive-type units (Spearmen, Pikemen, etc.). I prefer being on the offensive, or, when not feasible, fighting an aggressive defensive war (i.e. attacking the enemy's units before they reach my city walls).

Therefore, early triggering of my GA with Numidian Mercenaries is rarely an issue: if all goes according to plan, I can trigger my GA at just about the same time that I would were I playing the French.

If all does not go according to plan (for instance, I start in a poor location, or I'm playing Deity and find myself next to the Germans, etc.), I am very very glad to have the option of using Numidian Mercenaries to get myself out of the bind. Early triggering of my GA is a small price to pay to basically guarantee you will at the very least survive past the Ancient era. The Musketeer, although arriving at the right time for a GA, really does not provide anything interesting in terms of the unit itself.

In short: Numidian Mercenaries are flexible (and in more ways than I described here). Musketeers provide nothing more than a well-timed GA.

I find very little reason to play the French in SP other than my (infrequent) desire to see the color pink.


Dominae

[GhengisFarb™]

1) Avoid English Longbows

2) Avoid Germans.

3) Don't build the Maginot Line.

[bongo]

Originally posted by Dominae
I find very little reason to play the French in SP other than my (infrequent) desire to see the color pink.

Anything against pink

Seriously, couldn't agree more. Carthage is stronger than france, france is still a very strong civ though, due to it's trait combo. Even if you have to make it without a strong ancient defender.

[Mountain Sage]

An old thread resurrected...

As for France vs. Carthage, it all depends on your playstile and the situation you are in.
Since you are a happy warmonger, Carthage should suit you better. The NM are really impressive. Unfortunately, they trigger your GA, often when you are still in Despotism and in the middle of a war.
If you plan to fight a short/lazy war, try the following: go with Spears/Archers/Swords. 4 turns before offering peace, switch to Monarchy. 3 turns later, attack with your lonely NM. You get peace, your GA for city improvements and a better government.

Of course, if you play it nicely, you don't need an early UU. In this case, France is better (you often find in the middle ages a stupid civ landing some troops on your territory, defended by Musketeers...).

Again, since I don't necessarly play 'by the rules', I often win my games without even using my UU. I even managed to win with Scandinavia on an archipelago without building a single Berseker!

But Dominae is right: pink is quite...schocking!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Merde to all of you! Zere is nothing wrong avec le color pink, eh?

Seriously though... that attack plan (for Carthage) sounds a little convoluted, MS, though I appreciate it for that very reason... and as a brief side note, I would like to mention that I too have triggered a Viking GA without the Berserkir, a unit I hope that goes from being largely worthless to immensly powerful when the Scandanavians are made Seafaring... but I digress.

I'll just have to give Carthage a shot on Monarch level I guess, to see how often getting attacked early is a problem... In the two successful games I've played so far, I've been attacked early (of course, I've also attacked early, myself), so in that case, early-GA triggering IS a problem... but then again, if there's enough horsemen around to brunt the attack... oh, I should just shut up.

The Numidian Mercenary certainly has cooler animation... although I am not so sure ze Numidians eh make love in ze way les Musketeers do, eh?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
As for France vs. Carthage, it all depends on your playstile and the situation you are in.
Since you are a happy warmonger, Carthage should suit you better....
Of course, if you play it nicely, you don't need an early UU. In this case, France is better.

I think you missed my post above.

If you're playing it nicely, then you get your GA at the same time with either France or Carthage. You just need to be a little more careful about it.

In this sense the Numidian Mercenary and Musketeer are equivalent. Where they are not equivalent is the Ancient and early Medieval era, where Carthage gets an amazing unit if the need arises. France gets nothing.

This is all in SP, where you have more control over things. In MP, I still recommend Carthage over France, but for different reasons.

But Dominae is right: pink is quite...schocking!

I have nothing against the color pink, it's just usually not a good enough reason for me to pick the French.


Dominae

[Arrian]

There really isn't much difference between the two. The Numidian, while strong, is expensive. Against the AI, most of the time I'd rather be able to build spearmen. Avoiding having your GA triggered is no big deal, really. Have a few archers around until you have a swordsman force. Just don't use the Numidians. It's really not *that* restricting.

Sometimes a late ancient/early medieval GA is better than a mid-middle ages GA (musketeer). With the Numidian, you can choose. With the Musketeer, you must wait (or trigger via wonders).

-Arrian

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Merde to all of you! Zere is nothing wrong avec le color pink, eh?

Seriously though... that attack plan (for Carthage) sounds a little convoluted, MS, though I appreciate it for that very reason... and as a brief side note, I would like to mention that I too have triggered a Viking GA without the Berserkir, a unit I hope that goes from being largely worthless to immensly powerful when the Scandanavians are made Seafaring... but I digress.

The Numidian Mercenary certainly has cooler animation... although I am not so sure ze Numidians eh make love in ze way les Musketeers do, eh?

Convoluted? of course!
By now you know I don't (always) play by the rules. Sometimes, I just go to war to trigger the GA if I don't have the proper set of Wonders. Since on Emperor I often don't grab more than 1 Ancient Wonder (peacefully, that is), my attack plan triggers my GA without much trouble. After 5 turns or so, I sue for peace.
But I can be even more convoluted: I usually trigger my GA WITH THE MUSKETEER, as to be sure to grab SmithTC and the Sixtine...

As for making love, I see the difference as following;
The NM has to take out his sword from his sheath (or is he carring his big spiky ball around?, I can't remember), whereas the Musketeer has to put one or two balls in it and has then to prime it.

P.S. Dominae: you are right of course, with the NM, you feel less... naked.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ok, threadjacking time, sort of. I feel justified in this threadjack as I'm about to ask you all for advice regarding my current game as the French. Attached please find the file.

Bear in mind this is my second game on Monarch level. My goal is, as always, domination victory, but I'd be happy just ruling the entirety of my continent.

I am aware that my city spacing is not perfect. And yes, I am aware I should not be in despotism at this point... Furthermore, I do know that there's plenty of good land I should have settled already - I'm settling it now, ok? So just back off man.

I do have a few, looming questions that I need answered (please). They affect the future course of my whole empire. I built a very pretty core, with the Great Library (god bless) and the HG, and attacked my southern neighbors, Spain, England, and Rome, pretty much obliterating them (Rome is still being routed). Now my questions are: Who should I hit next? Should I go ahead and start attacking them with swords and horsemen, hoping to acquire Chivalry via the GL en route? Or should I hold off, switch to a more advanced government and develop my core, while beelining to MT?

Bear in mind that my goal is continental domination. That means, NO civs to be left alive (other than some "city states" that I can probably live with). That's why I'm buildign my FP one city away from my Palace - I intend to move my Palace to somewhere in Egypt or Carthage eventually, to be most effective in fighting corruption.

(If I get theology in the next ~10 turns, I may switch production from the FP to Sistine's, of course; no big loss)

I am, as before, a little nervous about attacking my larger, Southern neighbors with my horsemen and swordsmen. That's why I want everyone's advice. Does it look like I can make it? Or should I dilly dally, mop up the Vikings, Russians and Germans perhaps, and wait until Cavalry to take on the Celts, Egyptians and Carthaginians?

Please, all your Francophiles and Francophobes, warmongers and peacemakers: I NEED YOUR ADVICE!!!

[Harovan]

Shortly, because I'm tired as hell:

- Yes, get the hell out of Despotism
- Irrigate those effin' plains near Brest/Bayonne/Poitiers. I can't see large fields of mined plains. Don't say there's no water. Irrigate from Paris, you're industrious. Yes, you will screw some mines on the way, but you can re-mine them after the water reached the plains.
- Build Courthouses in cities farther than ~6-7 tiles from your capital. It pays off!
- Continue warring if you want, but France is a great UP civ and always good for a great "diplomacy" style game. I would not conquer the world, I would buy it, if you know what I mean.
- Your desired palace jump is ok. If you decide to stop warfare, Valencia is a great city for the new one (or for a FP, for that matter)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
- Yes, get the hell out of Despotism
- Irrigate those effin' plains near Brest/Bayonne/Poitiers. I can't see large fields of mined plains. Don't say there's no water. Irrigate from Paris, you're industrious. Yes, you will screw some mines on the way, but you can re-mine them after the water reached the plains.
- Build Courthouses in cities farther than ~6-7 tiles from your capital. It pays off!

All good points, and well taken.

As for the rest... well, what can I say? I must have those lands, I will have those lands. What do you think of my chances of taking them?

Thanks for looking at the game. I appreciate all feedback (even if I can't live with PUP)

[Nor Me]

Yes, switch to Republic now.

The Egyptians have no Iron and so should certainly be the next target. I'd be attacking them as soon as you've finished with the Romans. Horsemen and swordsmen are good enough against spearmen and horsemen.

The FP is good where it is. You certainly have enough elites to expect a leader soon if you keep fighting so I'd try and conquer the best spot for your palace as soon as possible. If that means attacking carthage with Knights then it'd be worth it.

You don't really need to hold off attacking any civ until they have Gunpowder. I'd try and control this continent with knights simply because it would be better to research the upper path. Fight now to be a better builder later. I'd try and have the palace and FP placed right and have things to build before triggering your golden age.