Indonesia: whose side are you on? - Page 2

August Borms · May 21, 2003, 09:45

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

And it;s not to be drunk on itself but with small spicy delights. NorthWestern Europe is full of shite when it comes to drinking. They just drink loads, become hammered and start acting like complete idiots every weekend.

Pathetic sight. In Greece there are even bars which are exclusive for "english" since they get so drunk pigs it's better to leave the drunk pigs alone.

Absolutely pathetic and degrading.

Your racist remarks hurt me

DinoDoc · May 21, 2003, 09:46

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Ouzo can actually kill you.

And it tastes like arse.

Bereta_Eder · May 21, 2003, 09:47

Belgium, excepted.

August Borms · May 21, 2003, 09:56

But we have the same "getting drunk and acting like compltete idiots every weekend"-culture as the Dutch and the English

Though the English may be worse because the pubs close at 23:00 and everybody drinks as much as possible before that...

TheStinger · May 21, 2003, 09:59

Of course part of our culture is down to the fact that we actually have to work hard all week to subsidise mediteranian scroungers. we need a release.

As you can sit around all week doing **** all that tension doesn't arise

VJ · May 21, 2003, 10:00

Quote:

And it;s not to be drunk on itself but with small spicy delights. NorthWestern Europe is full of shite when it comes to drinking. They just drink loads, become hammered and start acting like complete idiots every weekend.

Pathetic sight. In Greece there are even bars which are exclusive for "english" since they get so drunk pigs it's better to leave the drunk pigs alone.

Absolutely pathetic and degrading.

If this is what Greeks think about NW Europeans, I wonder what do the Spanish think of Finnish people?

VJ · May 21, 2003, 10:03

Quote:

Well let me see.. if these Acte guys are being super oppressed by Indonesia, and they are innocent, then sure. If they are both as guilty as the other one, then down with sharia dudes, may you die without honour.
If their claims are not legit against Indonesia.. let's roll

...And I was under the impression that the early 90's in Yougoslavia finally taught to the whole world, that there are no "innocent"/"guilty" groups (of people, that is).

Pekka · May 21, 2003, 10:09

Tuome, true, so that's why I might agree on pounding them with big guns. But I'll still have to wait for more facts before I justify it to myself, because if Indonesia is the bigger bad guy, well.. I just don't know yet.

Gangerolf · May 21, 2003, 10:11

Indonesia is an artificial construction anyway, basicly a continuation of Dutch colonialism. If some parts want to break loose, let them. If they want to have sharia, they're incredibly stupid, but that's their problem.

Pekka · May 21, 2003, 10:13

Gangerolf, I kind of have the same opinion, that if they want it, then let them have it. It's basically their own choice. I don't think we should intervene if they really want it, it's a free world and if you want to change your freedom to sharia, then be my guest.

Gangerolf · May 21, 2003, 10:18

but if they start training terrorists and stuff they should be "taken care of"

. just keep an eye on them.

Pekka · May 21, 2003, 10:21

exactly.

Maniac · May 21, 2003, 10:43

Quote:

But we have the same "getting drunk and acting like compltete idiots every weekend"-culture as the Dutch and the English

The difference is our beers actually taste well.

Arrian · May 21, 2003, 10:50

Banana. I hope we (US) stays the hell out of this. Let them fight it out.

-Arrian

Shi Huangdi · May 21, 2003, 11:15

Indonesia, don't want another Islamic state.

chequita guevara · May 21, 2003, 12:43

Atjeh is a mineral rich part of the Javan Empire . . . er, Indonesia. It has oil and gas and is the source of Sumatran coffee. Like Irian Jaya (West Papua, i.e. New Guinea), the wealth generated by the province is appropriated by the Javans and very little is returned to the provinces. Atjeh produces 11% of Indonesia's wealth, but gets only .035% of government spending.

According to NPR this morning, the last time the Javans attacked the Atjeh rebels, 10,000 people died, most of them non-combatants. 25,000 soldiers (with embedded reporters) and 15 warships have been sent to Atjeh.

Az · May 21, 2003, 12:55

Long Live the Javan Empire!

The Mad Monk · May 21, 2003, 13:02

If this ball "belongs" to anyone, it's the Aussies. Let them make the call, we'll watch their back.

Yes, yes, I know, we'll verify targets this time, I promise.

Japher · May 21, 2003, 13:07

Great threadjack Sloww

VetLegion · May 21, 2003, 13:12

The thing I read is that most of oil rights in the area belong to Exxon. So, could this be their mess in any way?

To everybody thinking of 'pacifying' Indonesia, it has larger population then Russia, so that would not be really easy.

And my thoughts are, fair is fair, they should get their independance, sharia or not.

Ramo · May 21, 2003, 13:23

Saying that the Islamist GAM and the rest of the pro-independence people is the same thing is totally absurd. Only the thuggish elements are Islamist (or secular, if you're referring to the Indonesian military, police, and militias). Indonesia has been doing in Aceh pretty much the same thing it used to be doing to East Timor - "disappearances," rape, torture, etc. And it labels everyone who oppose them (SIRA, etc.) as part of GAM, so has pretty much a free hand internationally.

And I'm for the liberty of the people of Aceh; **** GAM and the Indonesian state.

Ramo · May 21, 2003, 13:31

Quote:

The thing I read is that most of oil rights in the area belong to Exxon. So, could this be their mess in any way?

Exxon hired parts of the Indonesian military as their security force. On their job, Exxon's "security" had been complicit in murders, tortures, kidnappings, etc. of prominent civic leaders and humanitarian workers.

Cruddy · May 21, 2003, 13:56

Ouzo = good hooch. Shame I don't drink anymore.

Blowed if I got the answer. It seems a case of Muslim fascists fighting Muslim separatists. Spot the good guy? I can't.

Banana for me.

Az · May 21, 2003, 14:02

the ...fascists are not muslim clerical.

chequita guevara · May 21, 2003, 16:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
the ...fascists are not muslim clerical.

Both sides are Muslim. Megawati's a darn site better than her predecessor, the blind cleric, and he better than forty-year dictator, Suharto. Still, the Indonesian armed forces have way too much power in Indonesia. The offensive began even before peace talks in Tokyo collapsed.

Az · May 21, 2003, 16:16

Quote:

Both sides are Muslim.

The government of Turkey is muslim too. But these are totally different. I agree that the military has too much power in Indonesia, but this doesn't nullify that the other side is worse.

Urban Ranger · May 21, 2003, 23:33

Where is the "neither side" option? Both of them are bastards.

Frankychan · May 22, 2003, 03:19

Squash the rebel's!

GeneralTacticus · May 22, 2003, 06:52

No idea, really. I certainly don't want to see GAM implementing Sharia... but nor do I want to see a second East Timor.

Oh, and I think this case rather demonstrates the hypocrisy of people like Downer claiming that Iraq being a sovereign state didn't excuse Saddam's crimes; he's ruled out any kind of intervention on the gorunds that it's their business, not ours.

Skanky Burns · May 22, 2003, 07:15

Double-standards in politics? Well, I never!