Is it time to think things over? Chimps are people too.

[Dauphin]

Just listening to the Kinks, so thought I'd post this.

I think I'm sophisticated
'Cos I'm living my life like a good homosapien
But all around me everybody's multiplying
Till they're walking round like flies man
So I'm no better than the animals sitting in their cages
in the zoo man
'Cos compared to the flowers and the birds and the trees
I am an ape man
I think I'm so educated and I'm so civilized
'Cos I'm a strict vegetarian
But with the over-population and inflation and starvation
And the crazy politicians
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man
I'm an ape man I'm a King Kong man I'm ape ape man
I'm an ape man
'Cos compared to the sun that sits in the sky
compared to the clouds as they roll by
Compared to the bugs and the spiders and flies
I am an ape man
In man's evolution he has created the cities and
the motor traffic rumble, but give me half a chance
and I'd be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
'Cos the only time that I feel at ease
Is swinging up and down in a coconut tree
Oh what a life of luxury to be like an ape man
I'm an ape, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man
I look out my window, but I can't see the sky
'Cos the air pollution is fogging up my eyes
I want to get out of this city alive
And make like an ape man
Come and love me, be my ape man girl
And we will be so happy in my ape man world
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man
I'll be your Tarzan, you'll be my Jane
I'll keep you warm and you'll keep me sane
and we'll sit in the trees and eat bananas all day
Just like an ape man
I'm an ape man, I'm an ape ape man, I'm an ape man
I'm a King Kong man, I'm a voo-doo man
I'm an ape man.
I don't feel safe in this world no more
I don't want to die in a nuclear war
I want to sail away to a distant shore
And make like an ape man.

[Az]

God, I hate whining.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Sentience is self-awareness, thus any creatures that can demonstrate such a trait should be granted the same rights as humans.

Originally posted by Ramo
What is self-awareness, exactly?

I would say that is a philosophical question that cannot be answered. There is no way of knowing if someone is self-aware.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ramo
What is self-awareness, exactly?

Knowledge of oneself as an unique individual.

Originally posted by Ramo
Intelligence confers the ability to act responsibly within society. A human can generally be trusted to act responsibly within society; a tiger, for instance, can't. And the ability to act responsibly within society should determine the level freedom in society (that's why serial killers, for instance, should be locked up).

Hm, not really. Intelligence and being responsible are two unrelated characteristics. Granted that responsibility is only possible on the basis of intelligence (more precisely, human intelligence), but being more intelligent does not make a person more responsible. In fact, a tiger is highly predictable - as long as it's full, it's like a little kitten.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Azazel

Quote:

Suppose that we find an intelligent race of aliens on Alpha Centauri, shouldn't we treat them just like us, dispite the fact that their DNA is very likely completely different from ours?

No. They wouldn't treat us equally either, unless it's productive, biologically, for both races.

What do you mean by "biologically productive?"

Originally posted by Azazel
If they'd see a chance to wipe us out, they'll surely do this.

Why?

[Sandman]

There are groups of scientists who devote substantial resources to proving that chimps (and dolphins) are intelligent. However, they are also unwittingly selectively breeding these organisms for intelligence, so it's only a matter of time before they 'discover' a chimp that is as smart as a human.

[Dauphin]

You mean they will selectively breed a dolphin or chimp that can kick ass in some stupid scientific tests. Won't mean they are intelligent unless the tests are extremely numerous and varied in focus.

[Az]

What do you mean by "biologically productive?"

Beneficial to them more than just wiping us out and replacing us.

Why?

What's the point? Why would one animal co-habitate with another if he can kill it, and take all of it's wealth? This what humans did with numerous species along the way, probably did it with some hominid, intelligent, species, as well. Why would this be any different?

B.C.:

You mean they will selectively breed a dolphin or chimp that can kick ass in some stupid scientific tests. Won't mean they are intelligent unless the tests are extremely numerous and varied in focus.

Thing is that this is not very probable genetically. There are no genes for "playing good chess" or "writing classy poetry". There are only genes that coordinate the brain's ogranization, development, and constant restructuring. These "fields of brain developement" influence a wide variety of brain functions, and subsequentially, a wide variety of "intelligent" activities, in other words, making them more or less intelligent.

[Dauphin]

The gene may not be specific, but the outcomes can be. Computers are extremely good at chess and other computational activities, if a scientist measured intelligence based on the ability to play chess, calculate sums, recognise 3-D objects from various angles, and do tests of memory then they would deem some computers to be as intelligent if not more so than the average human. Try to equate that intelligence to another field, say basic conversational skills, and the computer is just plain stupid.

My point is that if you selectively breed you will only breed for the type of intelligence you look for.