Help! The Carthaginians are beating me to Alpha Centauri

hecose · April 2, 2001, 05:59

I'm relatively new to Civ2, having played less than 10 games, progressing from Chieftian to Emperor. I think I have met my match now - Emperor, 7 civs, raging hordes, normal map, and I plan to win by space conquest.

I have played one Emperor game before this - 4 civs, raging hordes, normal map, and I planned to win by military conquest. (I felt that with military conquest in mind it's toughest to win with 4 civs) That game turned out easy.

Back to my current game. Year is 1982. Both Carthaginians and myself have launched spaceships. Theirs to arrive 1990. Mine 1993, because I launched 3 years after they did. I have 39 structure, 4 fuel, 4 propulsion, & 1 of each module. They have around 15 structure (with the * mark), 4 fuel, 3 propulsion, 1 of each module. Both ships are fusion powered.

The mistake I made: I delayed my discovery of fusion power for my spaceship, worrying that if I discover it too early, enemies will steal it using spies. I changed my govt from Democracy to Fundamentalism in order to boost production. My science suffered. I thought it was okay because I was only 2 advances away from fusion power. What I didn't expect was that the Carthaginians launched their ship so early, when they don't have enough structures yet! I had to use my spies to steal fusion power before I could launch my own spaceship. Unfortunately, I was too late. Now what I'm trying to do is to capture the Carthaginian capitol, and thus recall their spaceship. I'm having a lot of difficulty because I have very much neglected my navy, and they are on another continent. I don't have much offensive forces either. By this time most civs have caught up with me in military science, making it tougher for me. I've built a few nuclear bombs and paratroopers. Haven't used them on the enemy capitol yet, but I'm worried it'll already have SDI Defence. :-( Boy... if you were in this situation what would you do? Help!

finbar · April 2, 2001, 06:16

Sounds like it's a bit late to do much about it now.

Unless you can nuke the cr*p out of their capital within the next couple of years, write it off as experience.

You'll find a couple of threads floating around which discuss the various approaches to the AI civs in SP games. If they're not in this forum, they'll be in the Strategy forum. Well worth a look.

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[This message has been edited by finbar (edited April 02, 2001).]

April 2, 2001, 08:37

Hecose, you have 8 years left to try conquering Carth's capitol. If the nuking doesn't work due the possible SDI, it a bit harder.. but with some luck you have still a chance. Btw, which version of Civ2 do you have? MGE (the one with multiplay) or 'classic' 2.42 version (without multiplay).

I would start a rigorous rushbuilding of transports, howitsers and stealth fighters (if applicable) and spies. Make some AEGIS cruisers to protect your transports and move them stacked with transports. Don't hesitate to sell improvements to get cash if needed! Cycle through all your cities and make all of them produce those units. Make sure next turn all your cities will produce some unit. You can't lose a single year now.

Then conquer the closest coastal Carth city as a foothold to your transports. Try nuking and paratrooping it if possible. You can take a small city which probably don't have SDI, because the point is to have a foothold in Carth continent for your transports.

If you can't conquer a convenient foothold city, make one! Just take one engineer in your transport, move your transport next to Carth continent, move the engineer to a tile where there is a direct access to the railroad system, built a city, move transport in the city and you have all troops ready to fight.

When you are getting some units ready, move them to your port city nearest to your Carth foothold city. (I hope you have your cities railroad-connected!) Put them asleep there, move your transports to your foothold Carth city and your units wake up with all their movement points intact. Try to make a shipchain if you need more than one transport to cross the ocean. Then move your attack force via railroads to Carth capitol. Use your spies to evade ZOC (Zone of Control). Then attack like a madman and hope that Carth capitol doesn't move too far from you..

Hint for making rushbying cheaper, if the shield box is empty: disband one of your city defenders to get some shields in the box. Then the buying is much cheaper. Hope this helps!

[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited April 02, 2001).]

Hasdrubal · April 2, 2001, 09:21

If I were you, I would cease my petty efforts and humbly bow to the might of the great Carthaginian Empire!

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Earwicker · April 2, 2001, 11:09

Pull out defenders from most of your cities so that they can serve on the invasion force. The extra mech infantry will do wonders in suppressing partisans which could otherwise slow you down.

Don't rely too heavily on any newly-captured city for healing or huddling in safety. The AI loves nuking its ex-cities.

In addition to howitzers and tanks, bring plenty of airpower and plenty of spies (to locate SDI's and to see where the enemy airforce is hiding). Nuke cities with too many offensive weapons.

If you are separated by the Carths by another civ, it can often be wise to take a short-cut through other civilizations if it will save you time. Compare the hassle of fending off the additional resistance with the time lost going around, consider the At that point in the game, the reputation hit shouldn't bother you -- everything should be turned towards the victory (or, more to the point, avoidance of defeat).

Finally, and most important: bring a larger force than you might think necessary. Count on the capital relocating at least once before the ship is destroyed.

Earwicker · April 2, 2001, 11:10

At last, a settler no more!

hecose · April 2, 2001, 23:25

Wow! I am amazed with so much good advice I'm getting! I should have signed up at this forum much earlier. :-) (but I have been reading it)

Well, finbar (are you the same finbar from Shogun: Total War?), I was indeed about to write this off as lesson learnt. Just wanted to give it one last shot and if I am going to lose, might as well lose gloriously (in flames...). Afterall I still have 8 turns left.

Marko Polo, I have MGE. I have lots of money so rush building offensive units is not a problem. I know of incremental rush buying as well as disband-rush-buy, so that'll help too. All my cities are also railroad connected. However, I only have 3 harbour cities anywhere near the Carthaginian continent, so it only makes sense to build transports/AEGIS cruisers from those three. I only have one harbour city which is 2 transport trips (2 turns, assuming I don't get killed by missiles or nukes) to the Carthaginian continent. I will consider both (and probably use both too) the techniques you recommended - using an engineer to create a temporary city as a foothold, or use nuke-and-paratroop to capture a Carthaginian city as foothold. I have to be really careful for these last 8 turns and really really micromanage. I have heard of the transport chain, but have never used it before. This is a good time to start. :-)

Earwicker, I didn't know they can simply switch capital and let their spaceship continue towards AC. I had better bring more men (and spies).

Just a few questions on spaceships:

1. The Carthaginian spaceship was actually launched despite not having enough structures (it still has the asterisk mark next to the number of structures). Wouldn't that mean the spaceship is not very stable and might break down before it reaches Alpha Centauri? I know 39 is the max structure. How do I determine the number of structures? How does it relate to the number of components and modules?

2. Once I capture the Carthaginian capital, does that immediately recall their spaceship? Or does the capital simply shifts to another city and the spaceship continues towards Alpha Centauri? Is this random?

And a question on spies and nukes:

3. How difficult is it for a spy to plant a nuclear device in an enemy city? I have never done that before because I disliked nukes, but as you can see now I'm pretty desperate. :-)

Scouse Gits · April 3, 2001, 04:52

In answer to 2 - as long as they have 1000 gold they will instantaneously rush buy a new palace and the capital will shift allowing the SS to continue - this is a 1000 after you have taken your pillage so once they are down to around 1200 you are on a winner ...

as for 1 - probably in the GL (top thread in Strategy) and 3 - ask La Fayette - he is the world's greatest expert in all things spyish - my own experience is I do not recall ever failing to plant a nuke with a spy, but they had a very low survival rate...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Rufus T. Firefly · April 3, 2001, 07:24

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-03-2001 04:52 AM
In answer to 2 - as long as they have 1000 gold they will instantaneously rush buy a new palace and the capital will shift allowing the SS to continue - this is a 1000 after you have taken your pillage so once they are down to around 1200 you are on a winner ...

I have to repectfully disagree, SG; in ToT, I've played a game where I sacked the capital of a civ with much more than 1000g, and they didn't move the capital (if memory serves, I was playing at Prince on a large map), even though they had a ship in the air; I remember it well, because it was my narrowest escape ever (their ship was faster than mine). Maybe there's a minimum amount of gold the AI insists on having in its treasury; I don't know.

That being said, hecose, the thing you really did wrong is overbuilding your spaceship; with only 4 of each component, you only need 17 structurals. Theres either a thread or a site that lays out the formula for this, but I can't remeber where; but I do remember the basic formula: assuming you build one of each module,

if you build...	then you will need...
3 of each component	15 structurals
4 of each component	17 structurals
5 of each component	21 structurals
6 of each component	25 structurals
7 of each component	29 structurals
8 of each component	33 structurals

More modules require more components, too, but I don't know how that figures; I either build one of each or 4 of each. Hope that helps.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly a whole bunch of times on April 03, 2001 (@#*$% HTML!).]
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited April 03, 2001).]

Scouse Gits · April 3, 2001, 07:37

Thanks for the correction Rufus - I don't play much ToT and have not observed the phenomenom in Civ2 SP... as to your problems with html - I believe I read that ubb code really cannot stand line breaks in embedded html - so if you take out all your new lines from your html I think it will improve the look of your excellent post ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Rufus T. Firefly · April 3, 2001, 08:23

Thanks, SG, that fixed it.

April 3, 2001, 09:31

quote:

Originally posted by hecose on 04-02-2001 11:25 PM
However, I only have 3 harbour cities anywhere near the Carthaginian continent, so it only makes sense to build transports/AEGIS cruisers from those three. I only have one harbour city which is 2 transport trips (2 turns, assuming I don't get killed by missiles or nukes) to the Carthaginian continent.

Well, you can always fill your coast line with new tiny cities which can produce transports & AEGIS cruisers in the next turn they are built..

Then, AI never uses nukes against any unit (only cities) nor missiles against any other than battleships. (IIRC)

quote:

1. The Carthaginian spaceship was actually launched despite not having enough structures (it still has the asterisk mark next to the number of structures). Wouldn't that mean the spaceship is not very stable and might break down before it reaches Alpha Centauri?

I have read somewhere here that a less than 100% spaceship never fails. I once sent 79% ship and my spaceship score was 79 points so I deduct that it only affects the score. Maybe someone here can confirm/disagree with this!

Earwicker · April 3, 2001, 10:11

Spies planting nukes can be a risky proposition -- I've had them fail on several occasions. Bring a few extra but be prepared to lose them if the first one is successful

Also, it usually creates a major hubbub among the other civs, and can result in numerous declarations of war against you. not that that's always a huge problem, just be prepared.

And I must agree with Mr. Firefly on the Movable Capitol -- you can't always tell whether they will rush-build a new capitol and keep the Mothership moving. I've seen large sums of cash stay in the bank, I've also seen it move four times while the reserves dwindle. Just be prepared for anything.

hecose · April 3, 2001, 21:21

Well, here's what happened to my game:

I managed to build a couple of transports and AEGIS cruisers and sent some spies, howitzers, mech infantrys, engineers to the Carthaginian continent, without getting nuked or killed by missiles (exactly as you mentioned, Marko Polo). I used the engineer to build a temporary foothold city and landed my transports there. For the next few turns I took out one Carthaginian capital after another. I think I had to take out SIX before their spaceship was finally recalled back to earth. Those were VERY anxious times. I kept worrying whether my spy will plant the nuclear device successfully. All their cities have SDI so I can't nuke them. They have lots of defenders + walls, and my newly-arrived invasion force is not big enough. So my only way was spy-plant-nuke and mech-inf-take-city. And gosh I triggered so many enemy partisans. :-) Planting nukes was pretty chancy indeed. When I was dealing with the last city before the spaceship was recalled, I think about 6 spies failed (and I'm having cold sweat, since their spaceship will arrive in like 2 years). By then I was really running low on spies (even after airlifting some directly from my continent to their continent). Thankfully that last spy was successful. Mech inf goes in, spaceship recalled, swarm of partisans appear. :-)

Scouse Gits, I'm not sure whether the >1000 Gold theory worked in my case. (I have MGE) I should load back my games and check. It's quite likely it did. The Carthaginians did have around that amount of money.

This game was also the first time I saw an enemy civ split into two. When I took out the first Carthaginian capital of Carthage, they split into Carthaginians and Japanese.

Rufus T. Firefly, thanks for the figures on the SS structures. Actually my other big mistake (which I just realise now) was - I forgot that the max number of components was 8 each. I thought it was 8 total (i.e. 4 each). When the Carthaginians launched their spaceship, I definitely had the resources to rushbuild 4 more fuel components and 4 more propulsion components. In that case my spaceship would (I think) have been able to overtake theirs and reach AC earlier. This would have saved me a LOT of pain! Arrgghh... stupid stupid mistake...

This game has been a good learning experience. Maybe I'll proceed to Deity... maybe not yet... :-) Thanks all for your advice!

Rufus T. Firefly · April 4, 2001, 02:56

Congrats on pulling out the win, hecose; I don't think I could have done the same under those circumstances (large-scale warmaking skills are not my strength). Just to give a little more perspective on the spaceship-building question, you should know that the smallest ship I mention in the table above will, with fusion, make it to AC in 15 years; the largest (33 structurals) will make it in 5. Extra structurals vis-a-vis components always slow you down. So, assuming you launched in the mid-70s (based on the dates in your first post), taking an extra turn or two to rush-build the final 4 components would have landed you no later than the mid-eighties. I find knowing these ratios crucial to my game; before I knew them, I made exactly the kinds of mistakes you describe. Anyway, congrats again!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

April 4, 2001, 03:48

Congratulations for your win, Hecose! I'm glad you could make it. I would encourage you to try deity, it feels great to win in deity first time! If you want an 'easy' win, I would recommend DaveV's ICS strategy (found in Apolyton Great Library). Good luck!

Scouse Gits · April 4, 2001, 04:45

Let me add my congratulations - it does feel good to pull those chestnuts out of the fire doesn't it ...

Go for Deity !

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

hecose · April 4, 2001, 04:56

If anyone is interested to see some of my saved games, I have them posted at the website below. The saved games are from just before the Carthaginians launched their spaceship, till I forced their spaceship back to earth, and up to just before my own spaceship reached AC. For you Civ2 veterans out there the situation (in 1974) might not seem as hopeless as I described. But it was the first time I had someone else beat me to the launch, so I panicked a bit. Thanks again for helping me survive the day.

http://hecose.tripod.com

Marko Polo, I'm still a bit shaky from this game. I will probably do a few more Emperor games before proceeding to Deity. ;-)

April 4, 2001, 06:04

quote:

Originally posted by hecose on 04-04-2001 04:56 AM
Marko Polo, I'm still a bit shaky from this game. I will probably do a few more Emperor games before proceeding to Deity. ;-)

Feel free to practise with emperor level as long as you want!

Still I can't resist the temptation to speak for deity (and make it even more appealing): you always start with two settlers. That's a big help!