France Tied Up in Knots Over Islamic Headscarf

[The Mad Monk]

France Tied Up in Knots Over Islamic Headscarf
Thu May 22, 2003 08:19 AM ET
By Mark John
PARIS (Reuters) - As France seeks to nurture a moderate Islam able to live happily within its secular state, it is getting tied up in knots over the Muslim headscarf.

Calls are growing for its prohibition in school, where young French minds are trained to respect the 1905 law separating the state and religion. A final decision could come next month.

But some fear any such move could backfire, exacerbating tensions between the country's 4 million to 5 million Muslims and other groups.

"This is the wrong battle. Legislation could be dangerous," said Bernard Kanovitch, the official at France's main Jewish organization, CRIF, in charge of with relations with Muslims.

Critics say the headscarf is an affront to France's secular ideal and to sexual equality. Teachers want a law banning the headscarf in school outright, and conservative Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin has said legislation is possible.

Alarmed by signs of a rise in fundamentalism in the country, France extended a hand to moderate Muslims this month by overseeing the launch of the faith's first national representational body. It is also talking about offering state grants for new mosques.

Other religions -- including the predominant Catholic faith and Judaism -- have in the past recognized the primacy of state, either by surrendering church property to it or bowing to secular law over religious commands.

Proponents of a ban say there is no reason why Islam should not make compromises too. And they say now is the time to act.


MUSLIMS FIRST, FRENCH SECOND

Resentment among Muslims about the poor hand generally dealt to them by French society is pushing more of them to view themselves as Muslims first and French second.

The plight of the Palestinians in the Middle East, and the perception that Islam is in the dock for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States is leading to a sense of alienation from the West.

Police figures point to a rise in anti-Semitic attacks, with Muslim youths the prime suspects. Tension is often palpable in the schools of culturally mixed areas. One teacher said he was showered with paper pellets for teaching about the Holocaust.

With its Muslim and 650,000-strong Jewish populations both the largest of their kind in Europe, the last thing France wants is a society dividing along religious lines. But teachers say this is what is happening in some schoolyards.

At present, teachers must grapple with a 1989 constitutional ruling empowering schools to ban any religious symbol -- headscarf, Jewish skullcap or Christian cross -- worn as an "act of pressure, provocation, proselytism or propaganda."

"Teachers feel totally overloaded. For them it means constant negotiation," said Hanifa Cherifi, the Education Ministry official charged with mediating disputes between schools and pupils over the headscarf.

Already, passions are running high.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy was booed by a Muslim gathering in April for insisting that women should remove headscarves for identity card photographs.

The traditionalist Union of Islamic Organisations in France (UOIF) responded by declaring that under Islam the headscarf for women was "an uncontested obligation, a truth."

Opposition Socialists, who shied away from legislating after a similar row in 1988, insist on more time for debate. For now, President Jacques Chirac is also keeping his council.

Indeed, arguments in favor of doing nothing are tempting.


FAR-RIGHT LOOMS

As Education Minister Luc Ferry has acknowledged, any ban could run up against European Union treaties permitting religious symbols in school.

Moreover Cherifi, herself a non-scarf-wearing Muslim, said her agency was having to deal with fewer disputes than before -- some 150 a year now compared to 400 in the mid-1990s.

"Despite more headscarves on the street, it is less prominent in schools thanks to teachers' efforts," she noted.

Kanovitch at the CRIF said Jews saw the headscarf as less of an issue than anti-Semitism and said it was up to Muslim leaders to resolve the issue.

Raffarin has said he would prefer not to pass a law unless necessary, fearing a "futile conflict." But doing nothing may not be a viable option.

Inaction on headscarves could leave the door open for far-right campaigner Jean-Marie Le Pen to exploit the issue in regional and European parliament elections next year. Pressure to act is coming from the top of Chirac's ruling UMP party.

"The legislature must assume its responsibilities," urged its chairman Alain Juppe.

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle....toryID=2792378

So...should the scarves stay or go, and what does it imply about religious restrictions in France?

[gsmoove23]

I doubt they prohibit Sikh men from wearing turbans but afterall the head scarves are not a religious symbol, simply a cultural choice toward conservative dress.

Where is the scarves should be allowed to stay because the law does not address them answer.

[DRoseDARs]

I didn't vote 'cause I can see it both ways (allow or ban).
(Actually, TMM forgot the 'Banana' option )

One thing a lot of Westerners aren't aware of is that coverings, such as the scarves, aren't called for by Muhammed. His words on the matter came as a result of intrigue within his own household, as a means of protecting his wives from some degree of gossip and such. His words weren't such that ALL muslim women must cover themselves (indeed, in the Koran there is a passage that women AND men should show physical modesty which can be interpreted equally as cloth coverings). It is just that time and cultural pressure have brought it about. A Muslim headscarf - or other covering in the Islamic world - is no more a religious symbol than a gaudy pink 12" rubber sextoy. When you start getting into the full body coverings, then it can become a matter of oppressing women, but still probably isn't a religious symbol. Does any rational Human being honestly believe Saudi women ENJOY walking around in the mid-Summer desert heat in those things? They don't do it for their religious expression...

It doesn't necessarily need to be a religious thing when one covers themself; it is often a matter of simple modest.


On the flip side, if the French-Muslims themselves wish to interpret such coverings as religious in nature, then they ought to respect the laws and traditions of the nation they live in. If they're French-born, it should be a no-brainer; if they're immigrants, then they should have figured that out when they decided to move to France.

[dannubis]

As long as those headscarfs are not forced to be worn i don't have a problem with them. And in the case of official fotographs (identity cards and such) it has to go.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
I doubt they prohibit Sikh men from wearing turbans but afterall the head scarves are not a religious symbol, simply a cultural choice toward conservative dress.

Where is the scarves should be allowed to stay because the law does not address them answer.

Are you saying that if a cross were worn as simply a piece of jewelry, it should be allowed (if jewelry is allowed), but if it has deeper meaning to the wearer, it must go?

[The Mad Monk]

Anyone who can add a banana option, please feel free.

[Buck Birdseed]

France's monocultural ideal sickens me- they're the one western european country that most openly oppress its minorities in the name of the dominant culture. Their treatment of their indigenous minorities, like the Bretons and Alsascians, is abysmal, and their imposition of cultural ideals on immigrants borders on the fascist. Open society, liberal democracy, real multi-culturalism!

[Menlas]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Their treatment of their indigenous minorities, like the Bretons and Alsascians, is abysmal, and their imposition of cultural ideals on immigrants borders on the fascist. Open society, liberal democracy, real multi-culturalism!

Our treatment of the Bretons and Alsacians ?

Did I read well ?

[Adalbertus]

France's monocultural ideal sickens me- they're the one western european country that most openly oppress its minorities in the name of the dominant culture. Their treatment of their indigenous minorities, like the Bretons and Alsascians, is abysmal, and their imposition of cultural ideals on immigrants borders on the fascist. Open society, liberal democracy, real multi-culturalism!

Buck, I think this lies in the history of France. To my knowledge, the medieval political system in France, England and Germany the Holy Roman Empire were quite similar in feudalism. Inside each of those big entities were smaller counties, like Austria, Lothringen/Lorraine, Saxony Genova etc. in the HRE, Bourgogne partially belonging to France and the HRE but having one duke, Normandie in France and so on. The Emperor/King also had one of those counties (Btw, the Duke of Normandy conquered England and thus became King). Then the French kings first started to conquer France - this is actually what happened between around 1200 and 1500 - and so taking all political influence from the dukes (The 100 year's war was part of this effort). After that, the French kings went on to other areas. The other ingredient is that France is to quite equal parts composed of Celtic, Roman, and Germanic (mostly Frankish) populations.

To make this mixture of (often non-willing) people a country which actually can be governed, it was necessary to impose an - also culturally - hard rule. So I think it's not a recent problem (the Britons in Bretagne belong to France from its very beginning) but an inherent consequence of centralism.

In fact, during the time I spent in France, I got the impression that after Paris, Alsace is the culturally most active region in France - and the "German Alsatian" culture, i. e. prior to the 18th century, is conserved mostly in Germany.

OTOH, I think France is on the way to understand that centralism is not the best way to go Germany had horrible experiences with that.
---

The other thing is that I don't want to tell the French in what kind of society they want to live. If French don't want to have a multicultural society, they don't have to. Nobody is forced to live in France unless born in France (since 1968, when they let go of Algeria). So, if French don't want to see religious symbols in school, it should be so, but then for all religions. It is the immigrant who has to conform to society (if he is in public), not society to the immigrant.

My personal opinion is that everyone should be allowed to wear religious symbols in school, if they do so by their free choice.

[Bereta_Eder]

France

[Solly]

Any kind of degradation of Muslims is fine by me.

[Bereta_Eder]

That'd explain why the UK is the only country in Europe with racial riots.

[*End Is Forever*]

Except it isn't...

[Solly]

Effectively, they are religious riots, Paiktis.

[Bereta_Eder]

right.

[Az]

**** multi-culturalism.

[Bereta_Eder]

The French educational system's principles are based on the liberty, fraternity, equality threefold.
Thus no seperation between pupils in schools.


It is an interesting debate with powerful arguments from both sides.

I'll make this addition though to the french thinking:

The official french line is that pupils should not come discrimninated in french schools. And that's all good and fine. And that religion has no place in schools (more or less you know what I mean) which is also fine.
You say that appearance of pupils should nto be directed by their religion when they come to school.

BTW that is actually a very old problem in france, that resurfaces from time to time.

Now if you think that the headscarf is an expression of islamic religion which should not be tolerated in french schools think this: the clothes we were are an expression of our won religion. hence, the private parts are covered. who is to say that this is acceptable and the headscarf is not?

if this is a case I could declare myself believer of the dodecatheon and come to class nude.

[Bereta_Eder]

so clothes who cover private parts are an expression of religion too.

also crosses, david's stars ect are all to be fobitten too arent they?


anyway seriously i dont agree very much with the interdiction of headcarfs, in greek schools and in athens central where 60% of the schools' population are immigrants, they come with whatever they want.

but it is interesting that girls want to become like greeks and dont wear headscarf,

[Arrian]

Banana. It's France's problem. Let them deal with it, and watch what happens - note the result. If their decision turns out to have been a mistake, try not to repeat it elsewhere.

-Arrian

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by Menlas


Our treatment of the Bretons and Alsacians ?

Did I read well ?

Yes. You ****ers. Their languages and cultural institutions oppressed in schools, centuries upon centuries of enforced Fracification... And not just there, don't forget the Corsicans, the people of Provence, the Basques, etc.

Paris is much worse than any other european government in this regard.

[GePap]

I am somehwat split (so i am not voting), but I guess I lean more towards the head scarf ban notions, except that I think an outright ban would not work more there than anywhere else, like Turkey.

[Menlas]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed


Yes. You ****ers. Their languages and cultural institutions oppressed in schools, centuries upon centuries of enforced Fracification... And not just there, don't forget the Corsicans, the people of Provence, the Basques, etc.

Paris is much worse than any other european government in this regard.

You are speaking of the past. Today, the people you mention are about as much oppressed as rightists in the White House

And by the way, calling somebody a ****er has never strengthened an argument. Even on the Apolyton OT forum

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Are you saying that if a cross were worn as simply a piece of jewelry, it should be allowed (if jewelry is allowed), but if it has deeper meaning to the wearer, it must go?

I'm saying a headscarf is a piece of clothing and a show of modesty nothing else. Plus, I don't think the French ban crosses or David's star, unless of course it falls under this heading...

constitutional ruling empowering schools to ban any religious symbol -- headscarf, Jewish skullcap or Christian cross -- worn as an "act of pressure, provocation, proselytism or propaganda."

This is the only piece of legislation the article mentions and its pretty hard to argue that a cross or headscarf is worn as an act of pressure, provocation, proselytism or propaganda. Instead the article talks about making new legislation because the law does not address headscarves.

[The Mad Monk]

They are using that legislation as a basis for a more specific law, saying that it would be in the same spirit. As Paiktis, among others, has demonstred here, it is not an unpopular idea.

[The Mad Monk]

dp

[gsmoove23]

Right, no law currently exists prohibitting the headscarf and right wingers would like to see it. As there is a lot of anti-arab sentiment in France I'm not surprised.

[The Mad Monk]

Interesting. Right wingers here have the opposite sentiment.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


I'm saying a headscarf is a piece of clothing and a show of modesty nothing else. Plus, I don't think the French ban crosses or David's star, unless of course it falls under this heading...



This is the only piece of legislation the article mentions and its pretty hard to argue that a cross or headscarf is worn as an act of pressure, provocation, proselytism or propaganda. Instead the article talks about making new legislation because the law does not address headscarves.

The main difficulty in this matter is that some concerned girls did not limit their claim to wear the headscarf; they refused to participate in some courses (sport, biology for instance) which is unacceptable in the public school. Also, during examinations the headscarf creates inequalities in the potential of cheating (funny, but real serious).

[Shi Huangdi]

So long as it is not intrinsically disruptive towards learning, students should be allowed to wear whatever religious symbol they want. Wearing a headscarf isn't going to interfere with learning. The heascarf doesn't stand as a threat to anyone.

[Oerdin]

I really don't see anything wrong with this law. The French are saying people are welcome to come to France but they must agree to act French and to assimilate into their culture. If you do not want to do this then you don't have to move to France. It is very fair and it is exactly what muslim countries force western women to do when they visit; i.e. they most put on the medieval head covering to fit in with the local population's customs.