The "Barren 'Burbs" Succession Game

[-Jrabbit]

STYOM Question -- Can I get around the "can't build Settlers" rule by disbanding an advanced tribe? (Technically, it's not "building a settler" IMHO... )

Started last night and I gotta say, this is gonna be a bear. Very difficult to manage our widespread cities in early governments. Tech rate sucks, income sucks, happiness sucks.

(Also pretty frustrating to have all this juicy land and be unable to build on it. )

Hard to find that key insight that will propel us forward. but I'm trying...

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
STYOM Question -- Can I get around the "can't build Settlers" rule by disbanding an advanced tribe? (Technically, it's not "building a settler" IMHO... )

Well, technically, the city is disbanded by building the Settler. Sorry, Jrabbit, but no.

Started last night and I gotta say, this is gonna be a bear. Very difficult to manage our widespread cities in early governments. Tech rate sucks, income sucks, happiness sucks.

(Also pretty frustrating to have all this juicy land and be unable to build on it. )

Hard to find that key insight that will propel us forward. but I'm trying...

Well, i figured that what we would wind up doing is bribing AI settlers and carrying them home in the bottom of our galleons to work the fields. Kind of a slavery thing, or something...

/me is glad that the game is tricky.

At least we're further along than the Silly rules game is. When you play your turns, think of me trying to somehow catch up to the AI in that one!

Play list:


1. atomant
2. Jrabbit
3. OldnSlow
4. SG(2)
5. STYOM
6. Bob_Smurf42
7. SCG
8. La Fayette

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Well, technically, the city is disbanded by building the Settler. Sorry, Jrabbit, but no.

Arrggh. But worth a shot.

Not only do we get very few cities, but we also get guaranteed non-optimal positions for them!
...and bribing foreigners without cash will be tough.

[SCG]

I admit i'm a little bit quick to get to Republic
If i hadn't already been having comp probs, I probably would have waited at least 4 more turns to go there. My goal was to get at least 1 city celebrating early on and wound up spreading the gold around a bit more than i intended (wanted to do Cul-de-sac, but had too many ships in the middle of nowhere)

What was killing me was the corruption and completel lack of trade, which did get alleviated somewhat with the republican trade, and can't see the game atm, but i think we had a couple cities on the verge (too small, or needed harbors)

shouldn't be too far off though to where it will be viable if people continue the foster program for wayward nomands

[-Jrabbit]

So here (with minimal delay!) is the save. Quick summary -- plenty of huts, so we have some new cities and some new techs. Changed emphasis to camel farming, and had to switch us back to Monarchy.

Could not remember how many turns to play -- ended up doing 13 (???). Turnlog shortly.

[-Jrabbit]

It's 880AD, and Speaker Remus Rabbit calls his advisors to another interminable committee meeting. He learns that he has taken charge of a Republic of 13 cities and 990,000 ppl, producing a grand total of 2 science beakers per turn (tech rate = 317 turns). The 15 or so GP (iirc) produced seems an insufficient payback for putting up with such lazy wise men.

Adjust to 40-20-40 (6 GP, 95 turns), adjust a few purchase paths (Courthouses!!), buy an incremental thing or two, and press ENTER.

900 AD -- Beachside builds temple, Boring Bastard a harbor, and Rhodes a lovely camel (food!). Got something from hut (???) Vet trireme docked in NoWhales4You sinks barb units blocking the harbor, killiing 5 units and earning the captain the Distinguished Lagomorph Medal. Forgot to rehome Coventry trireme Rampant disorder at ANY settings means I must diband.

920 AD -- Tax structure now 20/30/50 in hopes of maintaining some semblance of order. Hut yields Medicine (and possibility of Shake's!). Lonely horse on north pole finds companion NONE Crusader in hut. Point all camels to Rhodes.

940 AD -- "Screw The Republic! Long Live King Remus Rabbit!!" chant the revolting throngs. Rates now 50/50/0, bringing research rate to 22 turns with some fresh, youn XinMasters in place. Income is 1 GP/turn. How's your hut luck? Well, not bad, actually -- 50 GP, 50 GP, and Navigation harvested. No new tech choice til next turn, so Xinning stops for now. Change build in Freaky Finds from Marketplace to Harbor. (It has a Library, so we will want to use its sea squares as much as possible.) Use newfound wealth to rush temple in Trireme Cove.

960 AD -- Choices are Banking, Chivalry, Physics, Theology, and University. After much debate, we select BANKING (on path to Democracy) over Physics. Democracy is critical, much more so than Galleon/Frigates, which will require much building before it becomes useful. In other action, Trireme Cove starts a camel, and a hut uncovers the new city of Reading (has fish and whale, but can't use due to red face. ).

980 AD -- Xinning modified. (The Xin cities, btw, are Cul de Sac, Coventry, and Rhodes.) Hut nets 50 GP. Increments purchased judiciously. Rush temple in Plainville.

1000 AD -- Well, another millenium has passed, and what do we have to show for it? A very confusing empire, with widespread triremes that are hard to keep on task. Oh, and a tax deficit of -3 GP/turn (77 in bank) due to all the white goods we've been building. Rhodes = Xinning off to recharge. Hut = Physics!!!, hut = 50 GP.

1020 AD --Hut = NONE nomads!!! . We allow ourselves to buy a few increments here and there.

1040 AD -- Leeds grows to size 2 and is carelessly allowed to go into disorder. Hut = Banking! and another produces advanced tribe of Birmingham (size 3, with Temple, Library, and Market!! -- and one red face). Buy a couple incremental rows, drop science to 30, convert Xinners to tax (my first time ever Xinning for dollars!).

1060 AD -- No sign of William the Conqueror, due in 6 years. Permit myself a few increments. Buy temple in Thudnderdome so it won't stay size 1 forever. down to 20 GP in treasury. comptroller uneasy.

1060 AD -- Choose Construction over Magnetism and others (path to Demo!!). Ellie from NoWhales4U chases down encroaching barb legion near Coventry.
Hut = many barb horses. Noble diplomat to die shortly.

1080 AD -- Fiscal deficit now 5 GP/turn. Need hut gold so Xinners can concentrate on science. Hut = adv. tribe of Richmond (size 4, with granary and temple, one red face). Cul de Sac xins for science, Coventry for gold. Camels near Rhodes.

1100 AD -- Coventry Hides (demanded) to Rhodes, 10 GP. Hut = Chivalry. Science check reveals we're studying Magnetism, not Construction as planned!!! Dazed, we indulge in some semi-random movement of units.

1120 AD -- More camels approach Rhodes, help toward planned construction of Mike's Chapel. Hut = 100 GP! Hut = Chivalry. Cul de Sac, Coventry now free to Xin madly. We permit ourselves to buy a couple small increments.

1140 AD -- Free Parking completes Courthouse to reduce corruption and be better prepared for a representative government. Indians build Great Library of Lahore. French, Zulus abandon project. Disorder in Oxford (which quietly grew to size 3 without my noticing). Now -7 GP/turn on taxes @ 50/50 rates. Hut = Construction!!!!!!

Prepping for next turn, Remus Rabbit notes that his reign has gone on quite long and abruptly retires. As his final act, he bestows suburban names on the advanced tribes that joined the empire...
Birmingham = Blandville
Leeds = Mall-O-rama
Reading = Stepford
Richmond = Deerfield

Note to successor (OldnSlow IIRC) -- Thunderdome, Stepford, and Boring Bastard are all about to grow. I strongly recommend heavy Xinning under Mondarchy, as we are just too thin an empire to support a Republic at this stage.

Also, beware Magnetism, which will put your triremes at risk by killing the Lighthouse. (Sorry about that. I swear I selected Construction!!!)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Dang crossposts!

How far along are we to Mike's? If we finish that, we can sell some of the Temples

Oldn', you're up!

[-Jrabbit]

Sadly, not enough camels to get Mikes, but we're getting there. Foolishly took 10 GP for completing demanded Hides route, costing us 50 shields. Was hoping for more cash... (Everything feels very slow in this game.)

BTW, northern trireme is en route to pick up our polar explorers, OnS.

[Old n Slow]

As I read this great rabbit work I must respond sadly -- I’ll be away from a game friendly computer until no sooner than possibly Monday (where I’ll have to get some permission, install MGE, possibly play a few turns & other necessary behavior for a gamer).

If someone would like to step in (SG (2) perhaps…FRIDAY Night, hint hint!), I’d appreciate it.

Whether I get to jump back in next week or have to pass is up to STYOM.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

20 turns is still fine, until we find the AIs.

In any event, I'm erring on the side of letting people play more turns, instead of less. It's more fun to develop a long term plan than a short term one. So we'll keep playing 20 turns, until we meet our first AI, when we'll drop to 15. 15 should be plenty for most purposes... and will ensure that everyone gets to play at least twice, I think.

Also... another rule (even though this was supposed to be simple ). A player's turn ends when he eliminates an AI civ. This way we all get in on the mayhem

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

SG(2), please feel free to jump in...

[Scouse Gits]

I have the save. No Institute? If ever a game needed one - this is it

------------------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Uhmm ... Taxes 50% + Science 50% gives us discoveries every 128 turns and a loss of 7 gold.
The next advanced tribe will be The Institute to receive Academy members who don't send some precious settlers to the capital for road building... the only source of corruption-free arrows we have. Incidentally I see we are not using the Silk in our capital.
Some white goods halted ... we are in Monarchy and happiness is controlled by Martial Law. There are too many entertainers and not enough troops.
Some white goods sold which were no longer viable - Harbour in Boring Bastard/Libraries in Freaky Finds and Blandville/Granary in Deerfield this provides cash and reduces upkeep costs.

1160 Beachside builds Courthouse; Stepford Temple; Hut - Nomad this was a grassland hut @ 203,43...didn't think this was possible. Hut Engineering this doesn't appear as a white tech in F6. Hut Advanced Tribe The Institute came with a Temple and a Granary - the latter sold; Hut 200 Gold ; MarketPlace sold in Blandville.

1180 Russians complete Sun Tzu's; Indians start on KRC; Hut - Barbs ; Hut - Magnetism kills our only wonder and my new Caravel won't move 4! Well don't feel so bad about your mistake JRabbit - it was written in the stars

1200 Library in Cul-de-Sac; Hut Invention ... no more free techs!

1220 Hut - Legion; With some Xinning the tech rate is down to 26.

1240 Settlers from all over the empire make haste torwards the miserable unroaded capital.

1260 Checks F8 to make sure we have an AI in this game ... where are they?

1280 Everything is taking a long time

1300 Hut - 100g

1320 At last two nomads arrive to work around the capital

1340 A cunning plan has just been hatched on the road to Rhodes ... now that we have one

1360 A third settler arrives at Rhodes

1380 Rhodes now has two Roads

1400 Advanced Tribe - Cambridge; Hut Barbs

1420 Barbs kill dip - French start Cope's

1440 Hut more Barbs ... elephant escapes into boat

1460 Xinning now at full stretch brings tech rate to 11

1480 Nearing the target of the Lovely Lady

1500 Indians complete KRC; Chinese changed to Cope's as do the Indians Democracy

1510 Revolution + Statue of Liberty in Rhodes = Welcome to the Priesthood

1520 Harbour in Coventry

Notes for the next player:
Usually in Fundy I have token scientists and run with Luxuries @ 30% for celebrations with the rest on tax. However in this game there is so little trade that a lux rate would be wasted. A low science rate might be worthwhile as there are a few libraries. With Tax @ 80% we make 119 gold with 10 going on overheads. Steam Engine is being researched at 69 turns! Population is 2 million. Treasury = 103g

----------------------------

SG(2)

[SCG]

we may want to rehome some of those nomads that are en route to Rhodes so that we can get more. right now we have the maximum of 3 nomads for our # of cities, so are unable to get any more than the 5 settlers+nomads we have atm. Why didn't anyone rehome one of the nomads at No Whales for You??? We have 2 nomads working outside Rhodes atm - one can be rehomed at Rhodes and another at Cul-de-Sac fairly quickly, and then we can have up to 7 nomads/settlers. The other is midway between Free Parking, Trireme Cove and Rhodes - perhaps rehoming at Trireme Cove and building a harbor there would be the option there.

Also, i see we got both of the target techs i had set forth to achieve (Invention and Magnetism ) with those, we can upgrade our triremes and caravels to galleons and avoid tranportation ships at sea unhappiness problems. Of course we are selling the the marketplaces and harbors I bought to prepare for celebrations and have switched away from republic...

Anyway, Rehome the Nomads so we can get more!!!

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Well done, (2) .... other than in the Silly Rules game, I don't think I've ever been happier to see Fundy

I tend to agree with SCG - I'll bet we don't get nomads beyond a certain number (cf. samson's hut thread) based on the number of cities we have. At this point, in Fundy, rehoming them probably won't do any harm, anyway.

Old'n, you're up. I know Monday is a 'maybe' for you - but I can't play until Wednesday or so. So, if I don't hear from you (or atomant, come to think of it) by then, I'll play Wed or Thurs.

[Scouse Gits]

Additional points to my log for the next player:
1) Courthouses can now be sold, as they are all but redundant in Fundy.
2) There is still a scattered collection of specialists in some cities. In Fundy I could never decide on the best tax rate with so little arrows available.

SCG- With irrigation around Rhodes one settler can be homed there. If my calculations are correct that will provide a window for an extra nomad.

Once it became clear that Democracy/SoL was a reachable goal diverting ships to re-home settlers was never an option. They had to arrive at Rhodes (our only corruption free city of any size) quickly to begin the task road building so increasing the science rate. This coupled with ruthless Xinning allowed a tech rate of 11 turns … it had been 183. Normally caravan trading would have been used to speed a key advance, but after Jrabbit reported a return of 10g, I had second thoughts.

Some city improvements had to be sold. At the start of my turns there was a tax rate of 50% and we were in deficit by 7g every year. Overheads had to reduced whilst lump sums of cash were useful for essential buying and to fund science at 70%.

I'm sure you would rather have seen this game develop in a more perfectionist mode linked to a representative government. Without the ability to build settlers this is impossible. Republic/Democracy would be the worst of all worlds…restrictions from the Senate/unit support/out of town unhappiness coupled with an inability to grow the empire via celebrations because of the lack of engineering infrastructure.

Talking a good game is always fun, but producing results is sometimes harder.


-------------------------------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

SG(2)
Very nice management of scarce ressources

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
I'm sure you would rather have seen this game develop in a more perfectionist mode linked to a representative government.
SG(2)

Who, me?

This is a conquest game, and it's already 1520! Methinks Fundy will be the key to getting a vast army out there soonest, to swarm those big Indian cities I see on F8. Using the 'Find City' command, I can see that the AIs aren't too far away... really, it's surprising we haven't met anyone yet, gigamap or no.

(But then, part of the idea was to make the game hard... the bad guys have a good head start on us, and we haveb't been able to exploit them to further our own growth... yet )

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
Who, me?

Nah ... I know you are a Rodent!

-----------------------------

SG(2)

[-Jrabbit]

Fundy an excellent move forward, (2). I confess I didn't see it coming...

Selling white goods (and reducing the need to buy them) will fatten our treasury, which will help with both rush buying and eventual bribery.

Hut - Magnetism kills our only wonder! Well don't feel so bad about your mistake JRabbit - it was written in the stars

Oddly, this does make me feel better... (and good thing I didn't take 20 turns or we'd have taken Mike's and further delayed out move to Fundy. )

Great turns!

[Old n Slow]

If it is OK with Six, I'll sneak in & play a few -- after all, 60% of fundy is FUN!

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
If it is OK with Six, I'll sneak in & play a few -- after all, 60% of fundy is FUN!

Go for it... I have BBQs and fireworks on the agenda today, anyway.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


Go for it... I have BBQs and fireworks on the agenda today, anyway.

Oh, and it's still 20 turns, 15 once we meet an AI - and stop when an AI is eliminated.

[Old n Slow]

(1) 1530 -- move
(2) 1540 -- move
(3) 1550 -- Legion pops a hut of barbs (and dies accordingly) India nearly completes Copes (we think about it and pass) (we see a dk blue horse & cat near Blandville & Mall-o-rama)
(4) 1560 -- Dip pops a hut for a crux supported by Cambridge A pike man steps out of blandville -- We meet the French who are receptive; trade techs? (no) peace. we give them republic (now cordial, still no trade -- they break off contact. (Madras completes Copes, Chinese & French abandon -- France takes out its frustration & sneak attacks -- their now severely wounded horse has slain our pikeman.
(5) 1570 -- We buy a Fr Cat for 166g. Hut = Glouster
(6) 1580 -- Hut = another Cambridge crux
(7) 1590 -- Camel pops a hut full of barb horse & dies.
(8) 1600 -- Trireme (Cul-de-sac) sees barbs ashore on rock 48 (possible civ located there?)
(9) 1610 -- Hut = $50 g.
(10) 1620 -- move
(11) 1630 -- Hut = Manchester. buy a fr horse for $84g, who in turn slays a Fr cat. Cash in a third Camel to Rhodes fo $16g (second camel had a similar underwhelming payoff -- both demanded, however.)
(12) 1640 -- Rhodes completes Magellan's. Hut = $100g. Survey says that we're the 4th largest, French are 5th (???) -- We must have a LARGE map -- maybe the other civs have all traded maps with each other.
Fr horse dies trying to hurt our cat on a mountain. Indians start Leo's; Zulu's start Leo's.
(13) 1650 -- Non Settler is now a Free Parking Settler. Hut = None Settler!
(14) 1660 -- Dijon sighted. Meet the Zulus; they're Icy, want a tech (we say no) they declare WAR! (we're scared) boat sails on, we see Ngome; we buy Ngome for $695 & get Bridge building (their only tech) & $40 g.
(15 1670 -- A few barb horse appear "near Boring Bastard" -- it will take awile for them to arrive anywhere. hut = $100g.
--------------------
Two civs are working on Leo's -- if anyone else is working on a wonder it started more than 15 turns ago. The Trireme with two settles is heading for FF & BB with the intent to drop off & re-home accordingly those settlers & then return with a couple of camels.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Nice work! Magellans will help a lot - and now we have some AI Civs to beat up on!

So now it's 15 turns/player. I'll update the playlist. Since atomant is still MIA, I should be able to play over the weekend.


Play list:


1. atomant
2. Jrabbit
3. OldnSlow
4. SG(2)
5. STYOM
6. Bob_Smurf42
7. SCG
8. La Fayette

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

1670: Lots of money in the bank - do we want Leo, or do we want Mike's? Or both
1680: Wine>Oxford 16g, Spice>Oxford 6g. So much for trading with our own cities.
1690: Indians are nearly finished Leo; we decide to rush it in NoWhalesforYou.
1700: Leonardo's Workshop completed; all others abandon production
Advanced Tribe Bristol, Leicester founded with NON Settler.
Trade bonuses remain miserable.
1710: Start work on Mike's Chapel.
1720: French Horse near Dijon kills 2 units on mountain
Advanced Tribe Carlisle
1730: Michelangelo's Chapel built. We know full well that the unhappiness in Demo will be a killer - hoped all our Triremes would upgrade to Galleons, but a lot are still Caravels. Still, we're going nowhere trying to run a trading empire of tiny scattered cities. We need growth, ladies and gentlemen. Accordingly we're going to give Democracy a try (thought about Republic, thought about the corruption, thought better of it). Revolution.
Nomads near Bristol Will rehome them there.
Dijon captured - no new techs
1740: Democracy formed. Wool>Rhodes 31 g - a bit better
1750: Ipswitch founded.
1752: Copper>Rhodes 32 g. Advanced TribePortsmouth
1754: Peace with Zulus, gift 100 g, they refuse tech swap
1756: Embassy established with Zulus - they're quite low tech, with 14 cities.
1758: Indians start Eiffel Tower. Great, once they build it, we can find their empire
1760: Not a lot:
1762: Nothing interesting... the inexorable grind towards Steam Engine continues...
1764: Shakespeare's Theatre in Rhodes.

Well, tough call as to where we go from here. I built Shakespeare with an eye to the future. I wanted to grow Rhodes so it would be worth trading with - absent Sanitation, we might as well go to Communism or Fundy again. Democracy really isn't a great idea now - the unhappiness is a real nuisance to deal with - but even at 60% lux we managed to increase our science rate marginally and more than doubled our population.

Oh, and having finally found the Zulu mainland, there is a Galleon with 4 'vans on the way there... and more Galleons in the area exploring, and yearning to become part of a highly productive shipchain

Next!

[sirsnuggles]

Hey guys, I've read the entire thread. Found the game interesting, and wondered if I might humbly submit an application to enter your arena. You could consider me a substitute for the unfortunate bloaks who could not continue (btw, good luck with the job hunt, I hope it goes well for you).

I recognize most of you from the Mongol game.

I possess several questions, however, and hope that you can clarify your vernacular for me.

1) I am assuming that the term Xinner Xinner to refer to the three headed monster of Elvis/Merlin/IRS man (tax/science/entertainer)? I think I picked that connotation up.

2) How do I search for a particular thread? Specifically Samson's thread about huts. Can you give me a link?

3) What are "white goods"?

4) What is an OCC'er?

5) What is blackclicking?

6) What is ship chaining? I'm guessing that this is the civ2 trade caravan version of "pass the bucket along the line to douse the fire brigade"

[La Fayette]

1) Xin Yu is one of civ2 masters.
He has discovered numerous useful tricks, but Xinning is generally used to describe the method upon which is built the 'Size 5' strategy (grow a city to size 5, switch anyone to Einstein until the city starves, then switch back to food producers every other turn, to prevent the city from shrinking to size 4)

2) Use the 'search' function (blue button on top of page)
Type 'samson' and read and read again and enjoy

3) 'White goods' = City improvements (if you wish to know why: ask the SGs)

4) OCC = One City Challenge = Winning the game with one city (samson has even managed to win with one city size1 )

5) Blackclicking = I dunno cause I never do it
(in fact if you click 'in the black' where you haven't explored yet, you can get useful information, but most honest players don't do that)

6) If 2 ships are stacked and you click on the passengers onboard ship #1 ('wake them up'), you find them onboard ship#2 when it sails.
This can be used to provide instant sea transportation (provided you have enough ships to build the chain)

[sirsnuggles]

Thanks LF. I figured out 1 and 6 on my own many years ago, but don't employ either. 1 is just too detailed (civ2 is too easy to need to resort to such micromanagement). I suppose that if I were playing in a tournament, or ever tried MP, I would resort to the old tricks. Their are so many tricks to civ2, but I think most of them too tedius and slow down enjoyability.

6 seems like cheating to me.

Blackclicking doesn't work for me.

Did you guys ever read the article about cathedrals and colosseums being worthless?

Here is a link.

http://www.adk24.ucam.org/civ2.html#temple

Tell me what you think.

[La Fayette]

I just read the article: Interesting calculations, but...

1) About combat
The main conclusion: 'real attack' = attack*HP*FP and 'real defence' = defence*HP*FP, is the one I use when I try to appreciate odds. Some people (Marquis de Sodaq and probably SlowThinker) know better, but "fine odds don't make a win".

2) About improvements
AFAIK all the calculations are correct, but they give results for one city and don't take into account the cost of investment.
If you have for example one big city and several small cities, you can keep the big city happy with a certain level of luxuries (let us say 20%), but those luxuries will be 'lost' in the smaller cities (because there is a minimum to make a citizen content).
As to the cost of investment, the main problems are scarce ressources and opportunity costs (it is OK to say that a Market Place is good to have if it brings more than one gold/turn, but the main problem is "shall I build a MP when my treasury is 80 ?")